Joseph Smith Prepares Church for Second Coming of Jesus

Introduction and Series Overview

John Dehlin 0:00 Hello everyone and welcome back to Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's July 16, 2025 and we are now in part eight of our new podcast called the Joseph Smith Podcast, a sub podcast for Mormon Stories Podcast. And we are reviewing this brand new book by Yale University Press called Joseph Smith the Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by John G. Turner. Today we're going to be covering chapter eight of his book which is entitled Enoch 1830-1831. And I just want to thank everyone who so far has donated to this project to make it possible. We are now financed up through 11 episodes. So this will be the eighth, there will be at least three more and if people continue to support it, we're paying John for his efforts. We sent John his first paycheck this week, paid him up through 10 episodes. And if you want to see this series continue past 11 episodes, just go to donorbox.org Joseph Smith and that's how you will pay for it. We also ask that you subscribe to this channel, that you like it, that you comment. We love your feedback. We're going to try and do spend some time responding to comments and feedback. In a future episode. You can email me@mormonstoriesgmail.com. you can leave comments in the chats. You could also email John Turner directly. But most importantly, please buy this book. Buy it at Benchmark Books if you can. They have signed copies they'll send to you. You can find them on the Internet. If you can't buy it through Benchmark because they're sold out, feel free to buy it through Amazon or Yale University Press or wherever you buy your books. All right, without any further ado, Professor John G. Turner, welcome back to Mormon Stories Podcast.

John Turner 1:49 Thanks, John. I'm just going to take a second and just say I'm really grateful to you for doing this series and for the whole Mormon Stories community. I'm grateful for people who've been listening, watching, commenting. This is really an author's dream to especially someone who is an author in academia. So for an academic historian to have people interested in a book, and in your case, John de Lunde, someone who is willing and eager to talk about it in such detail. It's something I'm really grateful for. So I'm grateful for people who are supporting this through their listens, through their comments, through their giving. I'm grateful to people who've bought my book and engaged on it with me. This is a lot of fun for me. So thanks.

John Dehlin 2:49 Well, that means a lot thank you, John Turner. As someone who did publish a dissertation and probably like 12 or 15 academic articles, it was always so frustrating how thoughtful and meticulous and time consuming academic work is to have it be almost completely ignored. Or if it's not ignored, at best you'll get like a 45 minute interview where you talk at a super high level. But that's academia. Its virtue is going deep. You know what I'm saying?

John Turner 3:22 Yeah. Well, one of the great things about Mormon history is, you know, the broader, I mean, it's still smallish, but the broader community of people who are interested in Mormon history. It's a remarkable place. There are faithful Latter Day Saints, there are ex Mormons, there are a few of us never Mormons. There are professional academic historians, but there are a lot of ordinary people or people who are fantastic historians and manage to do great history while holding down day jobs in entirely different fields. I love it because there's so much, what I would just call lay interest in the subject. It makes it a lot of fun to write about something that people care a lot about. Sometimes it produces hard conversations when, when people disagree about it. But that is way more, for me, that's way more fun than writing about things that, you know, don't have great import for living people today.

John Dehlin 4:29 Amen. And we always love, over half our audience is never Mormon. So we always are thrilled to have never Mormons on, you know, interested in Mormon stories but also believing faithful Mormons. I've got a stake president I'm corresponding with right now, missionaries active, currently serving Mormon missionaries and bishops and bishopric members and Relief Society presidents. They're all tuning into Mormon stories. And that makes me just as happy as the ex Mormons, but I think the never Mormons make me the happiest. So anyway, without any further ado, I will say one thing before we start chapter eight. John Turner, you, you know that I have a particular interest in truth claims. And you know, after, you know, after the church is founded and we, you know, start getting into the creation of the church itself, you know, let's just say possibly a majority of the truth claims issues start to fade, maybe the Book of Abraham is one huge exception to that, there's some priesthood stuff. But you know, I was wondering, like, yeah, once we're not talking about plates and, and Angel Moroni and treasure digging, like, is this, is this still going to keep my interest? And I can say chapter eight. Absolutely. I, I was spellbound. So let's go ahead and jump in. Do you want to say anything at the beginning, about Chapter 8, Enoch, or 1830-1831.

Chapter Eight: Fall of 1830 Overview

John Turner 6:00 So the. The chapter is Joseph Smith's life from really the fall of 1830 until the move to Kirtland. And as always, there's. There's a lot of stuff. There's a lot of stuff happening. There are some conflicts between Joseph Smith and a couple of other people who perhaps want to question Joseph's authority in some ways. And then Joseph's continuing to work on what he comes to call his translation of the Scriptures. In this case, it's material that ends up in the book of Moses. And then we have Joseph's encounter with Sidney Rigdon toward the end of the chapter, a very pivotal figure in the early history of the church.

John Dehlin 6:57 And as we begin this, you know, begin this chapter 8, 1830. The center of the church is still in New York, right?

John Turner 7:06 Correct. Yeah, really in Fayette, New York, which is. It's not the only. You know, Joseph is moving around a bit between different communities in Western New York State, but Fayette's really the center of activity.

John Dehlin 7:20 Okay. Well, chapter eight begins with the topic of challenges to Joseph Smith's authority. And there's two main people that you highlight. One is Hiram Page, and the other is Oliver Cowdery. Do you want to talk to us about the ways that each of those guys challenged Joseph's authority?

Challenges to Joseph Smith's Authority

John Turner 7:39 Sure. Well, I think Cowdery, you know, from the start, he wasn't 100% comfortable being second fiddle to Joseph Smith, or at least he wanted to be able to do the sorts of things that Joseph was doing. He wanted to also have the gift of translation that didn't work out. He also, he rankled Joseph in the summer of 1830 by commenting negatively on a statement in the Church's articles and covenants. It didn't sit right with Cowdery. Theologically. I think the precise point is a little bit arcane. But the real issue was, did Cowdery have the right to object to something that either Joseph had produced or that the church had approved? And Joseph didn't like that challenge to church governance. And I think Cowdery, at least in Joseph's recounting, it had been a pretty blunt challenge. It wasn't Joseph. You might want to reconsider how this is phrased, at least the way Joseph told it. Cowdery had commanded Joseph to strike out a particular phrase or sentence from the Articles and Covenants. And so that very much rankled Joseph didn't appreciate that challenge. The second challenge from Hiram Page, it's far more colorful. So It's a better story. And quite simply, Hiram Page set himself up as an alternative revelator. He had a seer stone, and he looked at the stone, he saw messages, and he read them aloud. And somebody, I think maybe he wrote it down himself or somebody wrote it down for him. Might have just been him doing it on his own. But apparently, after a time, he had a sheaf or a roll of revelations. And the style apparently was similar to Joseph's own revelations. And this was. This was a. It was a sharp challenge to Joseph's prophetic authority because apparently we don't know that much about the. The contents of these revelations, but apparently they clashed with Joseph's own revelations on at least some important things.

John Dehlin 10:28 Okay, so if I understand what I heard, Oliver Cowdery made a doctrinal challenge to Joseph, saying that he objected to the idea that what people had to demonstrate works before being worthy of baptism. Did I get that right?

John Turner 10:45 Correct.

John Dehlin 10:48 Okay.

John Turner 10:48 Yes. Essentially, they needed to demonstrate their fitness for baptism, their moral fitness.

John Dehlin 10:54 And I can say that's still true to today because anyone who gets baptized in the Mormon Church has to do an interview with either the missionaries or the mission president and be found worthy to get baptized. So Oliver didn't like that.

John Turner 11:08 Correct. He thought, yeah, I think he was coming at it from a fairly Protestant angle that, you know, works should not. They should not be what mattered in terms of an individual's fitness for church membership.

John Dehlin 11:27 Okay. And were. Were the substance of Hiram Pages, quote, revelations even significant?

John Turner 11:36 It's hard to know. So because we don't know exactly what they. What they contained. It seems, you know, a lot of. A lot of historians, when they've summarized it, they have suggested that they pertain to matters of church governance and possibly the location of Zion. A lot of Joseph's revelations in the fall of 1830 have to do with the city of New Jerusalem, the city of Zion. There's a revelation that Joseph dictates in response to these challenges that emphasizes that the precise location of Zion is going to be revealed in the future. It's possible that Hiram Page's revelations, you know, had something more specific or something different to say about that, but we really don't know. I think if they had been. I don't know that it even mattered. If. If the revelations had simply attracted other individuals to Hyrum Page as a source of revelatory authority, I think that would have been a sufficient problem for Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin 12:50 And really quickly, Hyrum Page was using a stone to get his revelations following in Joseph's footsteps. But you mentioned that Joseph had stopped using a stone. Can you tell us, remind us really quickly why Joseph stopped using a seer stone?

John Turner 13:06 Yeah, so this is, you know, my best understanding is this is a bit of a transition period for Joseph. He still did use his seer stone on some occasions to dictate revelations or perhaps to seek God's guidance. But he mostly stops by the fall of 1830, and he's simply, at least according to some witnesses, he is going into something of a trance, like sort of revelatory mode or state and dictating revelations without the use of a stone or hat or any other device. I don't know that he totally, you know, totally abandons the use of his seer stone. He might have still used it on some occasions, but according to Orson Pratt, Joseph did make clear that he at least didn't need a stone in order to produce revelations.

John Dehlin 14:12 So then let's go ahead and go to how Joseph dealt with these challenges to authority. I. I love this stuff.

John Turner 14:20 Yeah, no, this, it is. It is a pretty fun story. So, you know, first, there's a revelation that Joseph dictates. I think this is still September of 1830. It's now section 28 and the doctrine and Covenants. And it contains a pretty blunt statement. Nobody, nobody else in the church is appointed to receive revelations and commandments, I think, for the church except Joseph, who receives them, as Moses did. Or, you know, it's. I wasn't. I don't have DNC28 memorized, but it's something to that effect.

John Dehlin 15:02 Yeah, no, I'll read it. I'll read it just for fun. I've got your book here. This is on page 83 of chapter 8. It's Jesus Christ himself. So again, this is Jesus's words. No one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph, for he receiveth them even as Moses. And then it goes on to say, as you write, the revelation also clarified that Joseph's authority came from God, not a stone. I have given him, Joseph, the keys of the mysteries of the revelations. The Savior explained. As for Hyrum Page, Cowdery was instructed to take him aside for a private chat and tell him that he had been deceived by Satan. Okay, keep going.

John Turner 15:51 Yeah. So, you know, first of all, I do think it was actually an important point, right, that, that second quote that you read, I've given him the keys of the mysteries of revelation. So Joseph's authority comes from God. It doesn't come from having chanced upon a stone or being in possession of a special object. I think that actually was, Was an important claim for Joseph to uphold. I think also, you know, it's, it's a pretty stark and blunt response to both Cowdery and Page. And they, they got in line. Joseph, you know, either the revelation or, you know, probably that in tandem with conversations with Joseph, according to the recollection of Martin Harris's brother from a couple of decades later, stones, excuse me, Page's stone was broke into powder and his writings burnt. So that was, I was shocked at that.

John Dehlin 17:11 They literally pulverized his seer stone to powder and burnt his revelations.

John Turner 17:19 Yeah, now that's, that's hardcore. It is hardcore. Now there isn't, you know, there isn't more contemporary evidence to confirm that memory of Emer Harris, Martin Harris's brother, but it's, it's a really, it's a, it's a fun coda or ending of that story. Right. It's, it's pretty clear. And I actually think for the, for the church this was. And for Joseph this is a recurring issue. You know, a church that is founded on revelation, on ongoing revelation, that does also believe that individuals can receive revelations from God, can have significant visions. Visions at the same time. You know, there's, there's going to be a hierarchical authority structure practically. If there hadn't been, you know, this would have been a very, even more chaotic movement. And so I think it, I think this is a really important point in moment in the early history of the church. And I can understand why Joseph meets it so vigorously.

John Dehlin 18:40 It is quite a pivot because as I understand it, when Joseph starts, it's the stone that has the power. I remember you even highlighting in a previous chapter that was it Martin who tried to hide Joseph's stone and swap it with another one. And then Joseph probably caught on to what Martin was doing and then pretended that he couldn't translate without the right stone. Like it, the, the stone had the power, right?

John Turner 19:11 Yeah.

John Dehlin 19:11 Or at least a significant power where the seer couldn't do the seeing without the correct powerful stone. And so this becomes a really important shift in Joseph's claim for power because it goes from the right stone needs to be had to. Joseph just talks to God and it's Joseph, not the stone that has the power.

John Turner 19:37 Yeah, well, you know, maybe to make a Harry Potter reference, maybe the wand chooses the wizard. You know, I mean, I think, I don't think it was, it was from the start, not ques. Not necessarily. A question of the individual or the stone, but the two of them in tandem. You know, there's that ambiguous, I think it's ambiguous passage in the Book of Mormon, I can't remember how Latter Day Saints pronounce it gazellum, where there's a reference either to a stone or to an individual. And I think those two things are certainly linked in Joseph's mind. He does think that he possesses a gift. And I think he also believes that that gift can be best utilized or most powerful in tandem with particular objects. And then by the fall of 1830, you know, he's doing something very different than he had done in the mid to late 1820s. He's now leading a church instead of producing a text or searching for treasure. And so it's a really different circumstance. One of the things that fascinates me about Joseph's life, especially the last 15 years of his life, is he embarks on all sorts of new directions. So there's always something new. And Joseph, I think more than many religious leaders, he is willing to change things up, he's willing to go in new directions, he's willing to set old methods aside. He's not a one trick prophet. And I think this is a good example of that. What's needed to produce the Book of Mormon is really different from what's needed to lead a fledgling church.

John Dehlin 21:44 Let me ask you really quick. Of course, we've asked you previously if you believed Joseph actually had golden plates and you were willing to say that in your opinion, you didn't think he did. I'm guessing as a Christian, you don't necessarily believe that Jesus said to the church that Joseph was the one to be receiving all of Jesus's revelations. And so let's just even, even from an academic perspective, assume that Jesus really didn't tell Joseph that, you know, he is Jesus's spokesperson on the earth. Then what is Joseph doing when he produces this revelation, you know, in response to Cowdery and Hiram Page, what's Joseph doing here with this revelation?

John Turner 22:32 So great question and great backdrop to it. So I guess first of all I'll back up and sort of you said, you know what you're guessing. I don't track with this as a Christian that, you know, for me, Joseph Smith was not Christ's oracle on the earth. So. No, I mean that's, that's certainly true. And I think, you know, as a Protestant Christian, you know, I'm sort of wary of an individual, you know, really having too much spiritual authority. I actually see that just as an endemic problem for human religious institutions. It's actually very frequently a problem in Protestant contexts. You know, so large, not even only large churches, you know, Protestant churches, you know, in theory, if they're denominational, they have some checks and balances. But a lot of the Protestant world is organized around the charismatic leadership of ministers who might not dictate revelations, but are pretty clear to their followers that they are following the will of God. I think investing too much leadership or authority in any single individual is really a dangerous thing for religious institutions. In the case of Joseph Smith and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or the early Church of Christ, you know, that was the, that was a feature, not a bug, right? The idea of prophetic leadership. And so that in a way that's presented as the solution to religious chaos, not a dangerous flaw. So I think one, you know, one could look at this from either angle of this being, you know, a dangerous flaw in investing too much authority in the decisions, ideas, or even whims of Joseph Smith. On the other hand, for a lot of Joseph's followers, this is precisely what's attractive about this movement, that it cuts through all of the confusion and chaos on the landscape of American religion and, and says, you know, here's a prophet, seer, revelator and translator. The, the second thing I'd say is I, and I really engage this in the, in the introduction to the book. I think it's really hard for historians to assess the sincerity of individuals. I think it's. That's pretty hard for human beings to do in face to face encounters. You know, sometimes I think we size people up correctly as sincere, insincere, but it's tricky. And I think with Joseph, you know, am I. Do I have a confident sense of whether he sincerely believes that he's dictating the words of Jesus Christ to Oliver Cowdery, Hyrum Page and the rest of the church in a revelation like the one that we've been talking about. Or does, you know, does he, does he not necessarily have that sincere belief? And is he being more manipulative? I don't know that it has to be one thing or another. I think a lot of Joseph Smith's activities in the 1830s, they, they do suggest a sincere engagement with sort of the theological marrow of his movement. On the other hand, sometimes later on, Joseph will just scribble down a revelation during a moment of contention and toss it to somebody. But I think it's, it's hard for, you know, sincerity is not sort of an empirical thing that historians can readily measure. So I try not to. I try not to attempt to measure it at every step of the way.

Power and Prophetic Authority in Early Mormonism

John Dehlin 26:58 No, that's fair. But I also think it's a fair analysis to say, on the one hand, this feels a lot like a power grab, like he's saying, I'm the man, I'm Jesus's voice, and nobody else will challenge me. On the other hand, that's. I don't know of a. I don't know of a more effective way to organize a people because as they say, I mean, we all know that the term too many cooks spoil the broth, too many chiefs, not enough Indians. You know, how many pithy aphorisms do we need to know for better or for worse? There's only one president of the United States. There's only one governor of a state. There's only one CEO of a corporation. Like, I don't know that we figured out a more effective way to organize a large group of people than ultimately to have one human in charge. And unfortunately, in history, that's most often a man. But I do think, like you say, Joseph could have very well had motives of just saying this is the most effective way, because if everybody thinks they're the ones leading the people, this movement's going to scatter really quickly.

John Turner 28:14 Yeah, no, I mean, I think that's true. Now I do actually think there are more effective ways of organizing human beings in the sense of, okay, having a CEO with authority is great. Having a powerful board that could keep bad impulses in check is actually really important for corporations. Right.

John Dehlin 28:38 A board that can fire the CEO.

John Turner 28:40 Right.

John Dehlin 28:41 And frankly, well, that's the Trinity. God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are the board and Joseph Smith's the CEO, and they can fire him anytime. You know what? Some Mormons believe that Joseph went into apostasy and God allowed him to be martyred, and that was their way of removing the CEO. The board allowed the CEO to be removed in a dark way. Sorry.

John Turner 29:03 No, no, no, no, that's good. I was also going to suggest that, you know, Congress and the Supreme Court ideally are checks on executive authority, but

John Dehlin 29:13 historically that can be true.

John Turner 29:15 Yeah, but, but I mean, you know, as a non Latter Day Saint historian, right, it's easy for me to say, okay, this is not. This is. And as a Protestant Christian, maybe this is not the, the best way to organize a religious institution. But on the other hand, as I said before, that was on, on some level, that was the whole point, you know, was a restoration of prophetic Leadership. I think, you know, the other thing you could, you could say about this is Joseph is, is also concerned. And we see this as we move along with the history. He creates significant leadership positions for a whole host of people. He, you know, he is always creating a new quorum or, you know, a new governing body. He wants to invite large numbers of men into meaningful positions of leadership within the church, at the same time guarding, you know, his ultimate authority to receive commandments and revelations for the church. It's a very tough balancing act. I think the genesis of the church it invites, you know, other would be revelators and prophets and, you know, even well beyond Joseph's lifetime. That adds to, you know, a tendency for splinter movements, which is, you know, something that Joseph's ecclesiastical descendants are still dealing with.

The Original Church and Its Early Structure

John Dehlin 31:00 You may or may not be surprised by this, but you mentioned in this chapter and in previous chapters and even today that the original church that Joseph founded was not called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, but instead it was called the Church of Christ. I remember as a Mormon not learning that until my high school years, I believe, or later, and feeling really shocked by that because the church always really heavily emphasized the importance of the name and that the name was received directly by revelation. But then it ends up getting changed later. And I just, I don't know if you've even thought about the fact that to some, most Mormons do not know this, were never taught this. And I don't think it's something the church really likes to emphasize. Any thoughts on that?

John Turner 31:50 As a historian, it makes it hard to write about it. So, yeah, I can't remember all the exact timetables. I think it's around 1834 that some of these are a function of formal decisions by church conferences. Some of them, I think, are just maybe evolutions. But I think by 1834, it's the church of the Latter Day Saints. I think a number of years later, it's the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. But then around, I think, the mid-1840s, you really get the current name of the church with the capitalization and hyphenation. One thing that, actually, this is a tangent, but I don't have tons of Latter Day Saints in my classes at George Mason. But every once in a while, and I have to say, I am surprised by the number of church members who cannot properly capitalize and hyphenate the name of their church.

John Dehlin 33:01 Yeah, yeah. You know, I'll admit that when I started Mormon Stories podcast 2005, I would have been 36 years old. I did not know how to properly spell and capitalize the church's name. And it was a listener who corrected me and actually shamed me and said, john, I'm ashamed of you that you, in 36 years, haven't figured out how to actually spell the church's name. Because the hyphenate ladder day with the D lowercase. In all my years, that never really. I mean, I actually. In my defense, when you grow up, you see the church's logo and all the letters are capitalized.

John Turner 33:47 Sure.

John Dehlin 33:47 So, you know, that's always in your brain. So I knew to hyphenate. I didn't know that the D was lowercase.

John Turner 33:56 Yeah. And so I belong to the Presbyterian Church, USA And USA is in parentheses with periods after the, the S and the A. Very few members of my local congregation would get that right. So I don't know. Maybe we're just pedantic scholars.

John Dehlin 34:16 Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's fun. It's fun to know. And, of course, there's a cynical side of me that's like, God, why couldn't God, if you're at the helm, why couldn't you have named the church correctly from the start? You know what I mean? But I. I know that even for believing Christians, you know, prophets and God don't always get things right the first time. Is that fair?

John Turner 34:36 You know, one of the things that Joseph Smith clearly taught was that everything's open to revision.

John Dehlin 34:44 Yeah. Kind of continuing, kind of an unfolding, continual restoration, which means you don't ever have to. You never have to totally get it. Right. Right. All right, well, let's go ahead and go to the next part of your chapter. Let's go ahead and jump to. To this idea of Zion. Where does the idea of Zion come from? Where does that. If you remember, this is putting you on the spot. Where does that word even come from? People outside of Mormonism, by the way, pronounce it Zion. But in the church, I've always heard it pronounced Zion. And I don't know if you even have come into that, but it's always weird to hear someone say Zion, but that's pretty much everyone but a Mormon, unless I pronounce it wrong. But anyway, where did this idea of Zion come from? Let's start there.

Origins of Zion and the Book of Enoch

John Turner 35:33 Sure. So now I feel like I've got to do Mormon pronunciations for this episode. I also always say Enoch in other contexts, and I have to remind myself, yeah, Enoch. So I'm sure I will jumble this up, but. So the the term Zion just comes out of the Bible as a synonym, rough synonym for Jerusalem. And in the Latter Day Saint context, the Book of Mormon contains a promise that God will gather the remnant of the seed of Joseph into a new Jerusalem, which is another biblical phrase. So a second Zion, and that's biblical. The phrase New Jerusalem is biblical, at least from the Book of Revelation.

John Dehlin 36:29 Okay.

John Turner 36:31 And I don't know, I'm a little fuzzy on this, but the Book of Mormon itself may only foretell the gathering of the remnant of the seed of Joseph. But Joseph's Fall 1830 revelations make it clear that all of God's elect, so converted Lamanites, but also other individuals will be gathered into one place. And the, the impetus of this is, I would say, you know, twofold. Number one, a lot of Joseph's revelations from this time period talk about an imminent second coming that will be preceded by intense tribulations on the earth. So the gathering on the one hand is to shelter God's people from that coming storm. But I think then also in the fall of 1830, Joseph is sketching out this vision of the city of Enoch, of a Zion in which God's people will be of one heart and mind. So there's this, I'd say this twofold idea. Number one, to be sheltered from coming tribulations, coming apocalyptic tribulations, and then number two, to create this Zion community in which people are united and harmonious.

John Dehlin 38:24 And I guess that's just scriptural, but I don't know that other Christian religions are really focused on Zion, a new Jerusalem, and a physical gathering into one geography in anticipation for Christ's imminent return. Is that right?

John Turner 38:43 Sure. Yeah. No, and it's an interesting thing about the early Mormon movement. There are certainly plenty of Americans who are anticipating an imminent millennium. They have all sorts of different ideas about that. They have ideas about its timetable, its exact connection to the second coming of Jesus Christ. But for most Protestants, the concern has been about time rather than place and space. For Joseph Smith, perhaps the most important, the most important issue was not when, but where. So where Christ would reign with his Saints. And it's an open question until the revelations. I think it's a bit of an open question until 1831, but it's increasingly clear by the fall of 1830 that it's going to be a place on the borders of the. Of the Lamanites. So in what is then at least near Indian territory in the West.

Millenarianism and the Second Coming

John Dehlin 40:09 Let me ask you, just as a, as a religion historian and a historian of Christianity and Christian History to some degree in the United States. Can you tell us? Like, one thing that was shocking to me was, you know, was to learn. Because as a high schooler, as a Mormon kid in high school, my seminary teacher that taught me early morning religious instruction loved to talk about the signs of the times. The, you know, the, the moon will turn to blood. What, what signs are going to happen that show that Jesus is about to come again? And it'd be like, there's going to be two prophets killed in the streets of Jerusalem. The moon will turn to blood. You know, there'll be earthquakes and wars. You know, that, that obviously very generic stuff that happens. Some of that stuff happens all the time. But, but I was fascinated with it. I was captivated by it. And it, it kind of sucked me in, not just to taking the church really seriously, but kind of fearing about the future and wanting to be righteous, like, but it was also kind of cool, like, all the bad people are going to be burned as stubble. The righteous are going to be, you know, translated the twinkling of an eye. Jesus is going to come, but before, but. But not before there's some big war of like Gog and Magog. Like, that was all part of the lore as a Mormon kid, that really sucked to be in. And then I learned the Christian prophets have been prophesying Jesus second coming since literally the time of Jesus. Like, Jesus dies almost immediately. His own apostles are talking. Jesus is going to return any minute now. Can you talk to us about the history of millennialism and do I have that right or do I have that not right?

John Turner 42:02 No, you totally have that right now. It's not, it's actually not the case that Christians have always been intensely interested in millenarian ideas. It sort of bubbled up at certain points in the history of Christianity. You're right that this is very much baked in to Christianity from the start. You know, there are New Testament texts that suggest that Jesus would return within the lifetimes of some of his earliest followers. So, you know, that's, that's quite significant and I might be forgetting the details of some of those texts. Joseph Smith engages some of them in 1831 when he's working on his translation of the New Testament in also, I'll just say in, in my, in some corners of my own Protestant world, these sorts of timetables and interpretation of events in the Middle east in particular, those have been very influential over the past century. So you, you can find a lot of examples of Protestants. Maybe this was also true in the Latter Day Saint context. Of Protestants who, when the modern state of Israel was created in 1948, they were certain that Christ was returning soon. That intensified in the late 1960s after the 1967 Six Day War, because it suggested that it might be possible for a temple to be rebuilt in Jerusalem. One of the very best selling books in the United states in the 1970s was a book written by Hal Lindsey, the Late Great Planet Earth. And, you know, I think part of the appeal of that sort of, you know, prophetic speculation is that you could sort of be in the know if you looked at the signs of the time properly. I think the problem with it is there are always wars and rumors of war. And as you suggested, there have been so many prophecies and speculations about the second coming and the millennium over the last two millennia that I don't know, maybe it's not wise for Christians to put too much stock into any of them.

John Dehlin 44:53 Yeah, let's go ahead. In the book, you talk about William Miller and you talk about Charles Finney. That stuff's going on right around the time of Joseph Smith, you know, in 1831. Do you want to talk about that?

John Turner 45:07 Sure. Well, I don't know how into the weeds listeners want to go, but. So those are two of the most famous religious leaders in the United States during Joseph Smith's lifetime. So Charles Finney was the Billy Graham, if you will, of the 1820s. In the 1830s, a remarkably effective Protestant, specifically Presbyterian evangelist. So Finney, he had an optimistic view of the coming millennium. He thought that if Christians could work together to create a Christian and moral society, they could bring about the millennium on earth and it would then be followed by Christ's return. So it's less of an apocalyptic vision of looming tribulation. William Miller was a Baptist minister. He had his own reading and timetable of biblical prophecies. Miller was convinced that, based on those, that Jesus Christ would return to the earth in no later than 1843. Christians would be brought up into the air to meet their returning savior and then the earth would be purified of wickedness. You know, the wicked would be essentially burnt to a crisp and then Christ would reign with the righteous for a thousand years. Miller, you might have heard that Jesus Christ did not return to the Earth by 1843. Miller tweaked his timetable a little a bit to recalculate it for 1844. This might sound far out there, but there were hundreds of thousands of Americans who accepted William Miller's timetable. So there was a lot of popular interest in the timing of Christ's return and the possibility of looming judgment.

John Dehlin 47:41 And so Joseph in the 1831 timeframe was swimming in this. I don't know if we can call it millennialism. Is that right?

John Turner 47:50 Yeah, millennialism, Millenarism. I don't know. Millenarianism, Millenarian world. Absol. And, you know, there are a lot of Joseph's early revelations that have really colorful, often biblical language about coming judgment and all of the terrible things that the wicked are going to endure in the near future. One of the things that Joseph doesn't do and resists doing when he's pressed on the point is he doesn't, he doesn't ever set a precise timetable. So Joseph says these things are coming soon. He doesn't say that they're coming in 1835. He's got one later revelation that I forget the specific details, but makes it sound like this could be 40 years off or something like that. But in general, he doesn't set a timetable the way that William Miller did. Miller's followers in the end were quite disappointed. Some of them later followed other leaders who essentially created the Seventh Day Adventist movement.

John Dehlin 49:09 Okay. And so, yeah, Joseph, your book talks about blood colored moon, darkened sun, falling stars, hail storms, maggot infestations, flies eating human flesh, you know, all that stuff in a coming storm. And Joseph feels like it's important to say that's happening. And ground zero for Jesus's return is going to be the Indian frontier somewhere around Missouri. So it's not Kirtland at first. Is it always somewhere in the Missouri frontier?

John Turner 49:47 So he simply, it first, it simply says among the Lamanites. And you know, by the fall, later in the fall of 1830, there's the mission to the Lamanites that features Oliver Cowdery and Parley P. Pratt. So I think in Joseph's mind, when he's, you know, when he's talking about among the Lamanites, it is pretty clear that it's going to be western Missouri. And this is before the conversion of individuals in northeastern Ohio. It's before the move to Kirtland. So this does, you're right, this does precede Kirtland.

John Dehlin 50:32 Okay, so that's, that's what's going on as it relates to millennialism. Joseph's got a place, and the place is. And Lamanites are involved or Native Americans are involved. That's a really important thing. And then Joseph stumbles on this book of Enoch, or as you would say, Enoch, I don't know.

John Turner 50:56 Let's talk about that.

John Dehlin 50:58 What's that?

John Turner 50:58 I said he'll be Enoch today.

John Dehlin 51:00 He'll be Enoch today. Talk about that book. It sounds like. Is it almost like, what are the types of texts that aren't biblical, but they're still written around the time that other transcripts would have been apocryphal? Is the Book of Enoch an apocryphal book? And what does that even mean? Let's talk about Enoch for a bit.

John Turner 51:24 Sure. So it's a huge fascinating subject, John, and I'm not an expert on it, but as you and probably many listeners might know, there are these brief references to Enoch in the Bible. So in the fifth chapter of the Book of Genesis, as it's working through a bit of a genealogy, there's a man named Enoch who walked with God and then was not, for God took him there. And that's. It's such a, you know, it's such a fascinating little phrase, and it invites questions. I think, you know, well, why did God take him? What does that mean? Where did God take him? And there's. There are also a couple of New Testament references to Enoch. The New Testament Epistle to the Hebrews gives us a bit of an explanation that because Enoch's faith pleased God, he was spared the agony of death and was immediately translated into God's presence. So between those two texts, a lot of ancient Jews found that passage in Genesis a bit mysterious and intriguing and sort of Enoch literature developed. There are a number of different texts, the most famous of which scholars refer to as First Enoch, which was probably written around the third century before the Christian era. I think there are existing. There are existing copies, perhaps in Aramaic, maybe in Greek. I forget. It's a fascinating text. It's not all about Enoch, but it does. It does suggest that Enoch became privy to heavenly mysteries, including another intriguing story in the Book of Genesis about angels mating with human women and producing a race of giants. So anyone listening to this is going to want to rush out and get a copy of First Enoch. I will say this is not. This is a text that was known among some scholars, you know, I think beginning perhaps in the 17th century there you can find Protestant scholars who have some familiarity with First Enoch. There's an English translation that's published in 1821. It's not at all clear that Joseph Smith even knew about that translation. He might have. He probably became aware of it at a certain point. But. But I don't think we necessarily know when.

John Dehlin 54:44 Okay, so Joseph stumbles on this Book of Enoch, and I was struck by the parallels between the things you highlight in the Book of Enoch and the ways that Joseph ends up framing his own mission. Do you want to. Do you want to talk about that?

John Turner 55:07 Yeah. So. So then. Then we have to kind of get back to what becomes the Book of Moses. So one of the things that Joseph's. And at first, this is really a series of revelations, but one of the things that this series of revelations does in 1830 is it expands on certain chapters of the Book of Genesis. And one thing that Joseph does is he takes that really brief reference to Enoch walking with God and then being taken, he transforms it into a long and rather grand story. God chooses Enoch. When Enoch is a young man, or maybe just on the cusp of. Of adulthood, maybe still a boy, he's someone who is slow of speech, but faithful and righteous. God gives him the power of speech, of speaking well. And he becomes a traveling preacher, really, a traveling evangelist of sorts, who goes from place to place and urges people to repent and to be baptized and really also becomes a bit of a wonder worker when. When they're. When sort of converts to Enoch's message face hazards. Enoch's words can bring forth things like earthquakes or floods to protect them. And then Enoch ultimately gathers his followers into a city. And they are of one heart and of one mind. They also divide their resources equitably. Nobody's poor in the city. And God calls the city Zion.

John Dehlin 57:26 Yeah. And, you know, one of the. One of the scriptural verses that I was taught to memorize, I think it's in the Book of Moses. And the Lord called his people Zion because they were of one heart and of one mind, and, you know, there was no poor among them. Right. And so, you know, and Zion. I was even taught. I think I was taught that the City of Enoch was the Gulf of Mexico, like the land that. The Gulf of Mexico now, or the Gulf of America for those who prefer to call it that, I still call it the Gulf of Mexico. I was taught that that hole was the city of Enoch, but then Mormons were taught that the city was actually translated into. And what I was taught is that the actual earth was lifted up and set somewhere and that left the Gulf of Mexico. Have you heard anything like that before? No.

John Turner 58:25 That's great. So, well, maybe we should just compromise and call it the Gulf of Enoch. Maybe. Maybe Mexico would agree to that. I don't know. No. Well, in the Gulf of Zion. Right?

John Dehlin 58:38 The Gulf of Zion.

John Turner 58:41 Well, if we called it the Gulf of Enoch, we'd have to Argue about whether it's Enoch or Enoch, but that wouldn't be.

John Dehlin 58:47 Or Zion or Zion. Right.

John Turner 58:49 So I don't know. Well, the Book of Moses itself talks about the city being raised up into heaven. That's also the passage in which God looks upon the earth, looks at the wickedness of other people and weeps. I hadn't heard about the, the creation of the. The gulf because of that. But that's, That's a, That's a fun detail, John.

Enoch, Zion, and Joseph Smith's Vision

John Dehlin 59:18 Yeah, well, I, you know, as I was. As I was reading through this discussion of Enoch, Enoch and Zion, I wrote some things that, that, that struck me as significant parallels. So first of all, it's coming out in 1821. Right. So that's clearly in the time Joseph is reading stuff, learning about the Bible, becoming more religious. It talks about the Garden of Eden. Joseph literally is naming a place in Missouri, you know, Adam on diamond, and basically saying that the Garden of Eden was in Jackson County, Missouri. I mean, that's something the Book of Mormon musical makes fun of. And so a discussion about the Garden of Eden, a discussion of Zion, that there'll be a chosen seer. Well, that's Joseph. You know, he talks to God. That's Joseph. There's a mention of a gold plate, which then hearkens to the gold plates. I don't mean to again get struck by parallelomania. Right. But there's a temple being built, ultimately, there's a temple built in Kirtland and in Independence, or a temple that's prophesied to be built in Independence, Missouri. There's a mention of masonry, which we all know that influences both the Book of Mormon, as we discussed last episode, and the temple ceremony, you know, and then this idea that Joseph Smith is a second Enoch, like all that feels, especially the golden plate and the Garden of Eden stuff, that all feels. And again, Independence, Missouri, that all feels very influenced by this Book of Enoch.

John Turner 1:01:05 Yeah. So I think there's two different things in the question that you're posing. So there's the possible influence of the Book of Enoch itself, or first Enoch. And then secondly, I think what you're also alluding to is the significance of Enoch within Freemasonry, so particularly the. The York, the Royal Arch degree within the York rite of Freemasonry. And so in those rites, God appears to Enoch in a vision, sends him to the top of a mountain and reveals to him a triangular plate of gold which contains the sacred name of God, which Enoch is commanded not to pronounce. So that also intersects, I Would, I would point out that intersects with another of Joseph's interests, which is the name of God in the original heavenly, pure language. I think what's, I think I would draw two conclusions from this. Number one, even if we don't know that much about how Joseph, whether even Joseph encountered first enoch in the 1820s or the extent to which Joseph was familiar with the Royal Arch degree within York Rite Masonry, the figure of Enoch had had at least some cultural resonance in the 1820s. It's maybe sort of in the air. You could say when I was growing up in the 1980s, if somebody had told me that Enoch's a really important figure in the Bible, I would have had. I've never heard of this guy. Right, because he barely appears in the Bible. But in the 1820s, in the 1830s, the figure of Enoch resonates. I think we can't, we can't necessarily trace these, I don't think we can trace these influences overly precisely. But I think there's a reason why Joseph latches on to the significance of Enoch. And then secondly, what I think is also quite fascinating is then as Joseph dictates these revelations that become the Book of Moses, particularly these chapters on Enoch, I do think again, Joseph's, you know, he's kind of, in a way, he's creating a figure that can be a model for, for him. So I do think Joseph, he sees a series of biblical characters or prophets as precedents for his own life, models for his own life. In a way, he creates a model in this figure of Enoch. And you know, after laying out the story of this Zion of Enoch, Joseph is going to try to create a similarly united and harmonious community.

John Dehlin 1:04:47 Okay, that's super interesting. That's super useful. And, and yeah, I mean, let me, let me just run an idea by you. You know, one of the apologetic arguments made about Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon is that the Book of Mormon is so complex, so sophisticated, that uneducated farm boy could never have written it. And I've heard smart people say in response that the Book of Mormon is such an obvious 19th century document that only someone like Joseph Smith could have written it. And let's just say I don't know if it's a corollary or like a branch of that would be that like this Enoch stuff seems so obviously in the air and in the soup Joseph's swimming in and all around him. And it seems to parallel so much what ends up being revealed by Joseph Smith and even being made scripture by Joseph Smith. It just Almost seems like both the Book of Mormon and the Mormon Church couldn't have come from anyone but someone like Joseph Smith. Does that idea even make sense to you?

John Turner 1:06:09 No, that makes sense to me. And I see the Book of Mormon as a 19th century Joseph Smith creation. I see the Book of Moses the same way, but let me push it in a slightly different direction. So I like to, you know, I like to emphasize some of what I see as the, I don't even necessarily know that they're attractive features, but really key elements of Joseph's person. So one of those again is he's remarkably creative and audacious. So one could say, oh well, the Book of Moses or this section on Enoch, it's sort of derivative of the culture in which Joseph lives. And I certainly very open to the idea that there are these cultural influences, but what Joseph does with that material is, is really original and creative. You know, he, he narrates this story about this biblical prophet Enoch. He creates, you know, he's able to preach and attract followers and form this remarkable Zion city. And there's this, there's this rather nice vision of God weeping over creation. And then at the same time Joseph is dictating these other revelations which tell his followers they're going to become part of this new Jerusalem on the borders of the Lamanites. It is a remarkably, I don't know, audacious, even preposterous vision. I think for a lot of his early followers these are kind of, this is kind of shocking. I don't know if they, whether or not people had read the Book of Mormon particularly carefully, but these individuals have just been baptized into this new church and here's this idea that they're going to be gathered with converted Native Americans into this new city of Jerusalem on the frontier. This doesn't sound like something that's very likely to succeed or be taken all that seriously in the United States of 1830. So, you know, I do, I do see a lot of, you know, a lot of creativity, a lot of audacity, a little bit of zaniness. And I think it's one of the, you know, that that package of traits is what makes Joseph so challenging for many of his followers. But it also, it's always leading him in these new directions and it certainly makes him a very attractive biographical subject.

John Dehlin 1:09:05 And don't you think there should be some sort of HBO epic, you know, multi season series on, on the life of Joseph Smith?

John Turner 1:09:16 Yeah. And you know, I think the funny thing is that when, when, when Hollywood does adaptations of, you know, you know, they, they do things related to early Utah like in American Prime, Primeval or do other other sort of productions about Joseph Smith and, and the church. I mean there's so much good actual historical material. I don't know. Yeah, I, I agree with you, John.

John Dehlin 1:09:47 Yeah, absolutely. Julia's, Julie and I both were texting behind the scenes. We both remembered some sort of millennialistic date or prophecy that Joseph Smith made and Julia was able to find it. So I don't know if this buttresses our memory in any credible way, but just because I don't want to misinform our audience, I'm reading here from the history of the Church, page 182 AD 1835. So this comes from 1835 and it basically it's sort of mid paragraph of the first full paragraph. It says President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called because God had commanded it and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. He then gave a relation of some of the circumstances attending us while journeying to Zion. Our trials, sufferings. This may be the Zion's camp, I don't know. And said God had not designated all this for nothing, but he had it in remembrance yet. And it was the will of God that those who went to Zion with a determination to lay down their lives, so this is relevant, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time. Or the coming of the Lord, which was nigh, even 56 years, should wind up the scene. So 56 plus 35 is around 91. So this is basically saying by 1891 Jesus should have come. According to this account, attributing it to Joseph Smith is that this isn't a gotcha. It could be that that's not even a credible source.

John Turner 1:11:38 No, I think that is a credible source. But I think Joseph also tended to often hedge a little bit. I can't remember the. I write about it later in the book. I do think in the mid. You know, so in the very early 1830s, Joseph's revelations, they suggest that this tribulation is super imminent. And you know, the flies and the maggots, you know that they're coming, which I don't like that idea at all. I would move to western Missouri in a heartbeat to avoid maggots in my flesh by the mid-1830s. A few years later, I think especially after the expulsion of the Saints from Jackson county, he, you know, the, the time frame gets a bit extended. And if you look at Joseph Smith Sr's early patriarchal blessings. There are quite a few church members receive the promise that they will live to see Christ's return. And that's sort of in keeping with the timetable of the passage that you just read by toward the end of Joseph's life, especially in response to William Miller saying 1843, 1844. Joseph is even more, I think, vague. You know, that. Yeah, Christ is returning soon. Ish. But we can't know the precise time.

John Dehlin 1:13:15 All right. Okay. Fun. All right, well, let's. Anything else we need to say about Zion or Enoch? I do know that I remember reading Doctrines of Salvation by Joseph Fielding Smith, and if I remember right, he had this whole section about giants and giants running, roaming the earth. And I don't know if it was giants during the time of Adam or like pre Adamites that were giants. Of course, there's David and Goliath and the myth of a giant, but it sounds like there's giants with Enoch, too. And that's a funky. It's one of those funky doctrines that, you know, has been in the Mormon soup for a couple centuries now.

John Turner 1:13:56 Yeah, no, so it's a. It's a passage that comes in the book of Genesis just a little bit after Enoch. It's sort of in the run up to the story of Noah and the Flood. This sons of God who find human women beautiful and produce possibly a race of giants. The passage is actually pretty cryptic. And so again, that was late, you know, left for much later generations of Jews and Christians to interpret. I think you can see that in the movie. I think it's with Russell Crowe. That came out, I know, 10 or 20 years ago.

John Dehlin 1:14:45 Gladiator.

John Turner 1:14:46 No, I think it was more a story of the. Of the flood. I'm probably mixed. I'm bad on Hollywood references. I should avoid pop culture.

John Dehlin 1:14:55 You're not a pop culture, you know, King. Is that what you're saying?

John Turner 1:15:00 No, no, not at all.

John Dehlin 1:15:02 Well, we'll forgive you of that, John Turner. All right, let's go ahead. And quickly. This mission to the Lamanites thing is funny because I don't think it's received very well. I think we talked previously about the missionaries getting kicked out of Kansas because, you know, the U.S. government and probably the people of Kansas and Missouri are not, probably not super interested in the redemption and exaltation of. Of what they called the Indians. And there's this whole Indian Removal act that's also there. Do you want to just talk about that as it relates to Joseph Smith's Prophecies about Indians and how that might have been received by Missourians and Kansans.

Mission to the Lamanites and Missouri

John Turner 1:15:48 Sure. So, yeah. So that. First of all, there's. The mission to The Lamanites involves four or five people in the fall of 1830, and they basically end up in Jackson County, Missouri. It's probably a pretty tough trip. Part of me wonders, you know, Oliver Cowdery is thinking maybe I shouldn't have quibbled about the articles and covenants. Now I'm sort of wading through deep snow on my way to western Missouri. And, you know, we might talk about this a little bit more in the next chapter, but Cowdery, Parley Pratt, and Frederick Williams, they do undertake some really brief preaching to the Shawnee and the Delaware, which, by the way, are peoples who have been, you know, progressively removed from their lands further to the east and are now across, you know, across the river west of Missouri in what is now called Indian Territory. The other thing about these native peoples is they've been hearing from a lot of different missionaries. They've been hearing from Baptists and Methodists. And so here are these. Here are these new people. There's not much evidence that any natives are all that interested in what the missionaries have to say. And they end up, you know, converting a handful of white settlers in western Missouri. But they're. They're really. Their greatest purpose is they. They do sort of confirm that this area of Jackson county, which is still pretty sparsely settled, they confirm. End up confirming in Joseph's mind that this is a good place to at least investigate for the city of New Jerusalem.

John Dehlin 1:18:09 Isn't it just kind of fascinating that Joseph declares American Indians as remnants of the tribe of Israel as, like, authentic Jews, and then declares Americans, white, white, Western Americans as Gentiles, and then also ties both the Book of Mormon's purpose and the entire gathering of Israel and the return of Jesus ties them all to Native Americans, and not just to Native Americans, but to a specific place, which is Jackson County, Missouri. And you kind of chuckled before we started that I made the note. Isn't it amazing how really important doctrines can completely disappear? All right, do you want to talk about that? Because nowadays you don't hear a lot from God's chosen prophet, Russell M. Nelson about Independence, Missouri, about the Indians, about the pure blood of Israel, about Gentiles, about Jesus coming. And it's all going to be happening. Zion, the new Jerusalem. You know, in Independence, there's literally no mention of any of that in 2025. I mean, personally, I might be exaggerating.

John Turner 1:19:24 But I'm just kind of disappointed that you all are only keeping a month or two supply of food at this point. I mean, I was so impressed, you know, at the one year food storage that I first saw when I started coming to Utah a couple decades ago. Yeah, no, I mean that is an interesting, that is really amazing or, or interesting that some doctrines, they, they can fade away. They can be really. I mean, from the start, the Book of Mormon, at least one of its primary purposes is convincing Native Americans that, that Jesus in the is the Christ and that they are the remnant of Joseph. That doesn't ever totally fade from Joseph's mind. I mean, it's still on his mind in 1844 to some extent. And there are church members who are interested in undertaking new missions to Native peoples in the American Southwest or up in Wisconsin. But it fades from view. And I think the reason it mostly fades from view is because early attempts at missions to the natives are just not very successful. There's a handful of converts during Joseph Smith's lifetime, but there are far more converts from the Gentiles. And so that becomes the focus.

John Dehlin 1:21:07 Do we know why Indians or Native Americans never really got super excited about Christianity like you think about like in South Korea? Christianity is everywhere these days. Like why didn't, you know, in, in South America, obviously Christianity and specifically Catholicism, but also Assemblies of God, you know, in Mormonism, they've swept through Central and South America. Why do we have any idea why Christianity and specifically Mormonism just wasn't, wasn't absorbed by North American Native Americans?

John Turner 1:21:46 Yeah, so that's a good question. It's not my area of expertise, but I actually would say that there are actually a lot of examples of Native Americans embracing Christianity. This predates, certainly predates the early 19th century, but during Joseph Smith's lifetime, a lot of Cherokee leaders had embraced Christianity and actually often used Christianity to condemn white American treatment of Native peoples. But if you go far further back, a very high percentage of, a pretty high percentage of Native peoples in New England embrace Christianity in the late 1600s, early 1700s. There, there actually are some significant Native American Christian ministers during Joseph Smith's lifetime who also use Christianity to condemn white American Christians. So I guess I disagree a little bit with the framing of the question. What I do think is, you know, the, the expectation that large numbers of Native peoples would embrace the Book of Mormon and the specific gospel brought by early missionaries of the Church of Christ. That turned out not to be the case. And I think it's partly because there I, I'VE been giving some counter examples of Natives who embrace Christianity, but there's also a lot of wariness that, you know, settlers and soldiers will follow missionaries. And this is really just more of an offhand comment by me than, you know, great historical analysis. There's a lot of, you know, there are a lot of competing Protestant Catholic missionaries. And so the idea that there would be an easy entrance for early Mormon missionaries into this sort of marketplace is, you know, it's a little bit fanciful.

John Dehlin 1:24:00 Yeah, well, I definitely wasn't claiming to have any knowledge about Native Americans and their adoption of Christianity. I was just sharing my loose, uninformed perception. So everyone please listen to, obviously John Turner over me. It's just, it's just interesting that Joseph chose such an emphasis on, on the Indians. And by the turn of the century, with the exception of Spencer W. Kimball trying to make a push with the lamanites in the 60s and 70s and early 80s, they have disappeared from Mormon discourse. It. It seems to me, in my experience.

John Turner 1:24:45 Right, yeah. And, you know, there are some other examples in the early Utah time period of, you know, Native communities that, that do a lot. I. It's sometimes it's a little bit hard to even talk about Native conversions. Sometimes it's more of an in line, an alignment or embrace of Christianity for a number of purposes. But, you know, I guess one thing I would say is it is surprising, given the Book of Mormon and the origins of this religious movement, that it does fade as a focus, as a primary focus during Joseph Smith's lifetime. You know, some of these initial missions, they're not successful. You know, Joseph could have, could have redoubled or re. Tripled those efforts. You know, he, he doubles and triples down on a lot of things. But I think perhaps it's just, it wasn't the most fruitful use of resources, time and energy. And so his. He goes in different directions.

John Dehlin 1:25:57 Yeah. Okay. All right, well, let's turn to. I want to turn to Sidney Rigdon, but I think before we talk to Sidney Rigdon, it might be worth talking a little bit about Alexander Campbell and his role in Christianity, because wasn't Sidney Rigdon in some way associated with or even potentially a follower of Alexander Campbell? So talk about Alexander Campbell and then. And then let's talk about Signy Rigdon emerging and then his influence potentially on Joseph.

Alexander Campbell, Sidney Rigdon, and Early Mormon Doctrine

John Turner 1:26:32 So, you know, Campbell, Alexander Campbell is a reformer whose efforts ultimately produce a. Ironically, they produce a denomination that's now known as the Disciples of Christ. So back in the 1820s, Campbell is one of a number of people, Baptist reformers, you could say, who, unlike most Baptists, become bent on the restoration of primitive New Testament Christianity. For Campbell, a big part of that is setting aside creeds. There's a watchword of the Campbellite movement, no creed but the Bible. It might emerge actually a little bit after Campbell's lifetime. But. And, you know, I think this would resonate with. With a lot of people familiar with the history of Mormonism right there. The basic idea is that early Christianity eventually became corrupted, if not apostate, in part because later generations of Christians layered all sorts of creeds and not strictly biblical ideas on top of Christianity. And, you know, this general idea of going back to the beginning of New Testament Christianity had appeal for a lot of Americans who. And I think the basic reason for that is pretty simple. They could look at the churches of their day and compare them to what they read about in the New Testament, specifically in the Book of Acts, and they would see a lot of differences. They would see churches which did not hold everything in common, which had huge gaps between the rich and the poor, or they could see that, you know, Christians of most protestants of the 1820s, they weren't experiencing divine healing or speaking in tongues or some of those other New Testament spiritual gifts. Campbell and most of his followers actually weren't interested in restoring everything. They were wary of some of those spiritual gifts. They did not believe that Christians should sell their possessions and hold everything in common. But they did want to strip away creeds, certain elements of church governance, and get back to a more primitive New Testament Christianity. Sidney Rigdon was a Baptist minister. I think he'd become a Baptist minister in the late 1810s or early 1820s. And then he met Campbell and became influenced by his sort of reform ideas. Campbell's followers were sometimes called Reformed Baptists. And so that, in a way that alienated Rigdon from a lot of his Baptist counterparts. And by the late 1820s, you know, Rigdon was also moving in directions beyond Campbell. So Rigdon, he was interested in the restoration of spiritual gifts, and so he'd even split a bit from campbell. So by 1830, I think Rigdon was. Was very much open to a new direction

John Dehlin 1:30:34 for those of us that are trying to maybe understand how this all came together, if it wasn't necessarily God and Jesus physically orchestrating it all. How influential? Because this idea of a restoration, that's absolutely central to my Mormon upbringing, this idea of an apostasy, the idea of the priesthood needing to be restored, you know, that is core Mormon doctrine to this day that honestly might be the most sacred and heavily emphasized part of the Mormon Church, because as a lot of our distinctive doctrine starts to become embarrassing and the church kind of backtracks, what they have left is claims of authority that the true priesthood had to be restored. We have the keys. We're God's one true franchise, and all the other ones don't have God's authority or permission. So I guess the question is, how much of this did Joseph put into the Book of Mormon that you're aware of? How much of this was Joseph already emphasizing and. Or how much can we probably accurately attribute Campbell Rigdon as introducing these core concepts into what now we think of as core Mormon doctrine and theology?

John Turner 1:32:03 That's a great question. It's really complex. I don't know that there are simple answers. So Rigdon, first of all, and then I'll try to circle back to Joseph Smith. And some people have proposed, stretching back into the 19th century, people have proposed contact between Rigdon and Joseph Smith prior to the fall of 1830.

John Dehlin 1:32:30 Some want to claim Rigdon helped author the Book of Mormon secretly, but he wanted Joseph to look like he created it. But really it was Sidney that was behind the Book of Mormon.

John Turner 1:32:39 Right, Exactly. Just to be clear, I don't think there's any evidence for contact between the two men prior to the fall of 1830. So I don't think it's so much a case of Rigdon having influence on Joseph at least prior to December of 1830. A couple of things that. One other thing that's important to Rigdon is he believes that baptism is required for the remission of sins, which is not something that most Protestants would accept. They. They believe that one should be baptized as a sign of one's repentance. But strictly speaking, you don't. You're forgiven of your sins before you submit to the ritual of baptism. So he has that idea about baptism. He is looking for the restoration of spiritual gifts. He's generally interested in the restoration of New Testament Christianity. I don't know to what extent Rigdon is interested in the concept of priesthood prior to 1830. I also don't think that there's a lot of evidence for the influence of Campbell Campbell's movement on Joseph Smith. But again, this is something that is, you know, this idea of New Testament Christianity, primitive Christianity, of restoration. It's another thing that is in the air. So there are some other. There's some other religious groups that are also interested in the restoration of spiritual gifts. That's something that's articulated very clearly at the end of the Book of Mormon. So I think it's one of the last things that people would read if they. If they worked their way through the Book of Mormon. So it's clearly. It's clearly important. And it was also something that was very important to Joseph Smith. Exactly where that comes from, I don't know that we know that.

John Dehlin 1:34:47 Okay, so I guess to summarize, is it fair to say that Rigdon was decently influential in the emergence of early Mormon doctrine and theology?

John Turner 1:35:05 I think the. Well, so the first. First enormous influence is one that a lot of listeners are probably familiar with. Rigdon has this sort of sphere of influence in northeastern Ohio. He's pastoring a Baptist church in the town of Mentor, which is not far from Kirtland. Unfortunately, the church isn't still standing. I tried to find where it was during a trip to Kirtland a couple of years ago. I couldn't find it. I don't know. People might know where it is. So he's been this influential Baptist preacher. He has a sphere of influence. He has congregants, but he also has, you know, broader influence. And. But Rigdon. Rigden is at this pivot point in his life. You know, he's been sort of alienated from mainstream American Baptists. He's also a bit alienated from Campbell's movement, but he's still pastoring. He's still ministering at this church. And then one of his. One of his. I don't know if congregant is the right term, but one individual who was influenced by Rigdon was Parley P. Pratt, who then joins the Church of Christ in the fall of 1830, becomes part of this group of missionaries to the Lamanites. They stop in northeastern Ohio on their way to Missouri, and large numbers of Rigdon's church movement convert and are baptized, and ultimately Rigdon himself. And so that brought a large number of people into the Church of Christ. It really shifted the church's center from western New York State and other parts of New York State to northeastern Ohio. So that was, you know, that was a major influence in terms of theological influence on Joseph. I do think we can, you know, we can speculate about. About some of that. I mean, I think a lot of Joseph's key ideas, you know, from the. That you see in the early 1830s, they're already present before Rigdon's on the scene. You know, if I wanted to engage in some speculation, you know, that joint vision that Joseph and rigdon have in 1832 about different kingdoms of glory. There are some parallels between that and Alexander Campbell's writings about the afterlife. I think you could see some loose parallels there. Also, I would just say the most significant thing is the conversion of Rigdon just gives Joseph's movement a significant amount of heft. So when the church has the conference to discuss the challenge from Hyrum Page and Oliver Cowdery with which we began this episode, it's around 60 people. But the conversion of Pratt and Rigdon, that leads to the conversions of hundreds of people in northeastern Ohio. So this goes from a tiny movement to something far more significant within the span of several months.

John Dehlin 1:39:09 Yeah, I mean, I don't know if I've got the number right, but it almost seems like it quintuples in size, largely just because of the conversion of Sidney Rigdon's congregation, which led me to wonder, how in the world did Joseph pull that off? Sidney Rigdon was not an intellectual lightweight. He was not a wimpy man. He was a passionate, highly intelligent man who had the power of an entire congregation, and he'd been studying religion his whole life. How did Joseph perform some judo jiu jitsu move and, like, take his whole congregation from him and get him to be subservient to Joseph?

John Turner 1:39:52 How.

John Dehlin 1:39:53 How in the world did that happen?

John Turner 1:39:55 Yeah, so it's a great question. So, I mean, one of the. One of the things is that, you know, again, and we've talked about this with other individuals like Martin Harris and Oliver Cowdery, Rigdon encounters this movement at a point in his life at which he's eager for a new direction. So he's just essentially had this split from Campbell in the spring of 1830. It's something that had been developing. He's looking for a movement that practices the spiritual gifts of the New Testament. It's not even so much that Joseph just brings this about. I mean, Rigdon is baptized without even meeting Joseph Smith. So, you know, Pratt is enamored with this new movement. And, you know, he. Well, he encountered the Book of Mormon. He's one of those individuals who reads it, doesn't think it's chloroform in print, apparently. Reads it, reads it all night long, and meets Joseph Smith, I think, after his baptism also. So, you know, very. You know, there's something about this movement that it's more than Joseph's charisma. You know, he's now set something in motion that has a certain momentum and power. So you get people like Pratt and Rigdon who convert and are Baptized before they meet Joseph Smith. I think, in a sense, people like Pratt and Rigdon, they. They had. Maybe they haven't been exactly looking for something like the Church of Christ, but a lot of its impulses, a lot of its ideas resonate with them. You know, then they see and hear about spiritual power, which they think is something that's been lacking in. In other churches.

John Dehlin 1:42:03 So in that sense, it seems like. So Book of Mormon, whatever the book, you know, so there's been this sort of secular explanation that the Book of Mormon was Joseph Smith's attempt to resolve a lot of the common Christian controversies of the day. In fact, Alexander Campbell ends up making a list of all the Christian controversies that the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith attempt to resolve, it sounds like by putting a stake in the ground theologically. In this case, it was a masterful move, maybe by Joseph Smith, that whatever he put together, you know, one of the most important things it did is it convinced people like Parley P. Pratt and Sidney Rigdon to get on board, which then led to them being important leaders in the movement. In that sense, the Book of Mormon seems like it was highly important. I don't know.

John Turner 1:43:07 No, I think so. And I forget the details of Rigdon's conversion. I think it's a few weeks after Pratt shows up as a missionary for this new church. Pratt is one of those individuals who encounters the Book of Mormon, loves it, reads the whole thing through and. And converts. That doesn't happen with everyone. Brigham Young thinks about it for a couple of years, but I think Pratt, you know, when. When he converts, he is. He's full of spiritual fire. I think there is. I agree with you that the Book of Mormon does put a stake in the ground. It is something that distinguishes the Church of Christ from other upstart churches at the time. I also think for a lot of. And I think it's easy for us to underestimate this, and I'm veering away a little bit from talking about Pratt and Rigdon. I think it's hard for us in 2025, maybe coming at this from a slightly different mindset, it's hard for us to appreciate the. And I simply call it the spiritual power that coursed through the early Mormon movement. The idea of a restoration of miracles, of healings, exorcisms, prophecy, speaking in tongues. Whether or not we accept the validity of those sorts of experiences from our own perspectives, those were very powerful within the early church For Brigham Young. He converts after he sees a group of elders from Pennsylvania speak in tongues. He'd been thinking about the Book of Mormon for a couple of years, but it hadn't sealed the deal. But to see the power of God present through those sorts of spiritual gifts for him, you couldn't dispute that. And so shortly after he sees that, he converts this as a couple of years later. But you know, there are other, other early converts like William McClellan. They convert after experiencing healing or it's at least an important part of their conversion story. So somehow this fledgling movement is able to channel that spiritual power in a way that is compelling to significant numbers of individuals.

Early Persecution and the New York Saints

John Dehlin 1:46:01 Yeah, that's a really important point. And I really appreciate you emphasizing that because the biggest critics have to explain how so many people got motivated to make such great sacrifices and to show such commitment and loyalty. And we're going to talk about that a tiny bit more in just a second. But, but that's the heart of religiosity, is kind of spiritual energy and spiritual experience. And that's why religion is, I don't know, 80% of the United States identifies as religious in some way. Like clearly it is meaningful and is real to people, you know, so, okay, really quickly, I did not realize that Joseph Smith Sr. During this time is back in New York and massively in debt and ends up in jail and that the, the, the decision to move from New York to Ohio. Like I always envisioned Joseph running all these treasure digs, promising all these men that they could own a share of the golden plates when they get sold, whatever treasure gets found. There are these companies of men and treasure diggers that will all divide up the booty. And so Joseph has run out because he doesn't end up making good on the financial promises that he seems to make to these treasure diggers, which is all based on treasure that probably never existed. So that's kind of how I envision Joseph Smith getting run out on a rail and going out of New York to Ohio, along with sort of claims that he's talking to God and starting God's one true church, which from the church perspective, when true prophets claim they speak to God, Satan rises up and then in the hearts of men persecutes the righteous. But something very real is going on, which is the Smith family is in massive debt and Joseph Smith Sr. Is in debtors prison. Is that right? And is that part of also the move from Ohio to, I mean, from New York to Ohio?

John Turner 1:48:14 No, that's right. And you know, most of this information comes from the history dictated by Joseph's mother in the mid-1840s. So we don't know too much detail, but what seems to have happened is, you know, one true church, but one poor family. And the Smiths are no better off financially in the fall of 1830 than they were in 1825. They still have no money. It's not so much that the family has massive debts, it's that they have very little income. And so they have creditors who begin to press them and to harass them and to bring suits against them for the failure to pay debts. Lucy Maxmith talks about creditors showing up at the house, making life really uncomfortable, threatening the family. And you know, oftentimes, you know, these situations were a little bit fluid. You know, usually a creditor would often give people additional time because ultimately they wanted to get paid. And putting somebody in jail didn't facilitate getting paid. But that, you know, there's, there are at least some creditors who are really pressing them for payment and just. Joseph Smith Sr. Ends up in jail for several weeks that fall. You know, the family doesn't have great regular sources of income. Some of the siblings are in, in different little communities in western New York. Joseph and Emma seem to have traveled around a bit. They don't really have a very stable existence as of the fall of 1830. You know, they've left Harmony. They don't have a home of their own. So again, I think they're also open to a new direction. And I think the burgeoning of the church in northeastern Ohio, I think it provides a solution. I don't know that, you know, as of the spring of 1830, Joseph would have been looking to immediately relocate his family and the church. But by the fall of 1830, you know, the move back to Fayette and, and other places in western New York, it hasn't been providing Joseph of the Smith family with any stability. So they're looking, they're looking to move on.

Revelation to Relocate to Kirtland

John Dehlin 1:50:57 Okay, so obviously what we're about to, you know, what we're about to talk about is this revelation, you know, for everyone in New York to relocate to Kirtland, Ohio. And I would, you know, just like in last episode, I kind of got a little bit angry towards the end. I'm just going to admit this. This kind of got me angry this last part. So basically, you know, what I wrote in my, in my timeline is that there's a December 1831 revelation which again seems to correspond with Joseph Smith Sr. Being in debtors prison and the Smith family being broke in New York. But the revelation. Do you want to tell us what the revelation is and what the aftermath is. And maybe you can start by talking about the sacrifices and the implications of this revelation for the people in New York and elsewhere.

John Turner 1:51:58 Yeah, so there's a December revelation. The takeaway essentially is gather at the Ohio. It's not specific, but Joseph clarifies that means northeastern Ohio in and around Kirtland do so because of the enemy and for your sake. So I do think that's a reference to the harassment and suffering that the Smith family may be enduring in the fall of 1830. I think by this point Joseph Smith Sr's. I think he's out of jail, but you know, their situation is just unsettled and not prosperous. And Joseph announces this plan at a church conference, I think on January 2, 1831. And for some people this is a, this is a stunner. Now I think, I imagine that especially ever since Signe Rigdon had shown up in Fayette earlier in December, I, I imagine this has been a plan that's, that's been discussed. But this is a big ask of church members and so it's essentially asking them to leave behind their homes to go somewhere new. I think, you know, if people who are familiar with the early history of the church, they're very used to that principle of gathering. But it's a really radical idea. You know, if you join a Methodist church, it's a big event in your life, but you're probably staying in the same place. You're just going to, you're, you know, you've got a new religious community and this is something entirely different. And there is a lot of, has a lot of hesitation. According to John Whitmer, some people accuse Joseph of inventing this revelation and deceiving the people by forcing them to, to sell their property. Some people think worry that Joseph is, is going to be making demands on their resources. So this is a, this is a huge and controversial ask.

John Dehlin 1:54:19 Wait, who thinks Joseph might be making this up for self gain again?

John Turner 1:54:24 Well, we don't know exactly, but it's. John Whitmer has an early history of the church and he simply says that some people suspected that Joseph invented the revelation to deceive the people, that in the end he might get gain. But so we don't know exactly who's most concerned. Probably it's church members, those church members who do have substantial property. You know, if you want to sell immediately, you might not get, get a good price or you simply or being asked to sacrifice more. Joseph does seem to have responded to the grumbling with another revelation. There's A revelation from early 1831. And in it, Jesus Christ. This is connected to the Enoch material that Joseph has been dictating. I am the same which hath taken the Zion of Enoch into mine own bosom, Christ declares. And again, there are warnings of apocalyptic judgment to come, but a promise that those who are faithful and obedient are going to receive an inheritance that they will enjoy forever. There's also a promise of spiritual power that, like the earliest Christians, they will be endowed with power from on high. There's also a little bit, I think, of massaging the situation. Joseph's revelation doesn't insist that people have to sell their property immediately. Perhaps they could lease their farms if they couldn't sell them for a good price. And, you know, many church members assent to this revelation and begin making plans to move to northeastern Ohio. In the end, not all church members follow this commandment. Josiah Stowell, for instance, one of Joseph's stalwart supporters in the late 1820s. He doesn't sell. He doesn't sell out and move. He doesn't lose his faith in Joseph as a seer, but he doesn't choose to gather.

John Dehlin 1:57:06 You know, what I'm struck by in the notes that I made are just the incredible sacrifice. It's one thing to claim to speak for Jesus. It's, you know, it's, it's. It's to make these bold claims of translating a book with you, talk to an angel and translate golden plates. But as soon as you're, like, telling people to leave their childhood homes or the homes that they built with their families, to sell their land, to sell their houses, to lease their houses, if they can't sell them, relocate. And then there you add, you know, sort of this idea of Zion and united order, and we're all good. You know, like we talked about in the last episode, we're all going to give our money to Joseph. We're going to be paying Joseph's salary now, paying for him and Emma, probably paying for his parents later, and give all your money to Joseph, sell your land, come live where we tell you to. Follow us. And then what he's doing is he's adding this millennialistic rhetoric about maggots and fire and hail and the death of non believers and an apocalypse that's coming, and there's going to be burnings. But if you come gather to Zion with me, then there'll be rich blessings and bounties, and Jesus is going to come and you'll get power from on high and you'll inherit A land forever because Jesus is right around the corner. It feels like all this rhetoric, number one, is used to emotionally manipulate people into doing things that qualify as kind of high demand and. Or cult like asks because, you know, some people, and we've talked about this before, John Turner, and this is an attack of. Is not an attack, of course, but like people, they're sort of like studying this from an academic perspective. And you know, and we note, oh, there's funny things here and there's mirth and there are things to laugh at or be amused by or there's things to study clinically. But then when you like turn to kind of the mental health aspects or the psychological aspects and you think about how serious this sounds, how manipulative this sounds, how coercive this sounds of adopting this millennialistic language, manipulative language, the end is near. Follow Jesus. Jesus is talking through me. You're going to get maggots eating your flesh if you don't do what I say. But there'll be blessings unleashed from on high if you do. You start to think, this sounds a lot like David Koresh. This sounds a lot like Warren Jeffs. This sounds a lot like Keith Ranieri. This sounds a lot like L. Ron Hubbard. What is the difference between this turn that Joseph makes and a lot of these serious cult leaders that we end up condemning as like literally jeopardize, ending up jeopardizing, if not abusing, jeopardizing the lives of their followers. And so that's a really long and loaded setup to this question of what do you say to people that find these sorts of revelations beyond the pale, Jumping the shark and. Or highly manipulative or even cult like.

Joseph Smith's Prophecies and What Followed

John Turner 2:00:45 That's a really fun question. I guess one thing I would say is that if we look at what unfolds over the next 13 and a half years, got about 13 and a half more years of Joseph Smith's life remaining. This is a real point of tension. So there are some. There are some times at which people fall away from Joseph's movement because they feel that Joseph is asking too much. I'm thinking in particular this is a minor episode. But the next year Joseph and a number of men and sometimes families, they make a trip to Jackson county. And on the way back, most of the men have to travel by foot. And Joseph and Sidney Rigdon, or maybe it's not Sydney. I don't think it's Sydney, but Joseph and a couple of others travel by stagecoach. And there are some people who are really disgruntled about that because, you know, they're making sacrifices that Joseph himself isn't making. There are other times, though, where Joseph is clearly sacrificing just as much as anybody else. You know, he basically walks along every. Everybody on the march to Zion in 1834. You know, he's tarred and feathered in 1832. There's no getting away from the fact that this is a movement organized around Joseph's prophetic leadership and authority. And I definitely find it objectionable, not only in the instance of Joseph Smith, but I find it objectionable when any Christian leaders sometimes drawing on biblical language, promise their followers this worldly blessings in return for, you know, financial sacrifices in particular. You know, that that sort of language is, Is pretty pervasive within a lot of churches. And the reason I think it's objectionable because people don't. They don't always get those blessings. And I think it's much better if religious leaders are honest about that. You know, if you tithe, if you tithe or if you give. Make extraordinary gifts to something, you may not get, you may not get the blessings that you're anticipating, you might get other spiritual blessings. You know, those are harder to measure. So, yeah, Joseph asks a great deal. People make tremendous sacrifices. Whether or not that makes, Whether or not you therefore want to define the early Mormon church as a culture, I don't know. I mean, I do think there's also, there's also more to this than a cult of personality around Joseph. I don't think that's, you know, I don't think that's. That's all it is. But it certainly is a movement that's centered, centered around Joseph's authority, especially during the early 1830s. It's, you know, Joseph is really leading through revelations. In fact, they, they tail off a bit after 1834. So it's a movement centered around a prophet and revelator who asks a great deal of his followers. And for some people being drawn into that story, it's the greatest thing that ever happens in their lives. And they retain their faith in the church and in Joseph. For others, they very quickly conclude that, you know, Joseph's a fraud or he's being hypocritical. Some people follow Joseph and devote their lives to him for seven or eight years and then have a really painful rupture with him. So you get all sorts of, of human experiences. I agree with you. I, you know, I, I like to emphasize, you know, those mirthful, audacious elements of Joseph's personality and leadership. I think those in some ways are what allows him to. To make his mark and create a movement of last, lasting significance along the way. Of course, there are individual stories of joy and purpose, but there are also individual stories of heartache and alienation and sacrifices that don't pan out.

John Dehlin 2:06:14 Yeah. And I do think your discussion of mirth is relevant because I think, and I've said this before, people, you know, when people can laugh and have fun and experience joy, that bonds them to the people that they're working with and motivates them to be a part of a people. And so I do think that's critical to mention. So.

John Turner 2:06:42 Yeah, and. And it's. It's just. It's just a. You know, Joseph Smith, he's a complex character. It's a complex movement. I think it's, you know, it's often not just all one thing. And I think this is, though, for a lot of his early followers, this is. These developments are surprising. I mean, he's been alluding to this new Jerusalem and, you know, there's this idea of this future city of Zion, but then this, this move to Ohio. For a lot of individuals, if you step back and think about it, they make these repeated moves over the course of 15 or 20 years, and those communities often fall as. As quickly as they grow. And so for a lot of individuals and families, they are, and Joseph Smith himself, they're living through, you know, almost repeated trauma. And it's hard for me, who's never been run out of town anywhere to this point.

John Dehlin 2:07:59 It's, It's.

John Turner 2:08:00 It's hard for me to. To fathom what that. What that feels like.

John Dehlin 2:08:05 Yeah. Well, I love your perspective. Let me just say, for the people that did believe in this revelation, in the prophecies and in what Joseph Smith was saying was going to happen if they relocated to Kirtland, Ohio. Can we say definitively whether or not Joseph's prophecies about Kirtland. I know that's. We're kind of foreshadowing here, but did they come true? Or were some of his prophecies around Kirtland? Did you know, did they not come true?

John Turner 2:08:40 Yeah. So, I mean, it's always a mixed bag. So I'd have to go back and look at that whole revelation. But there's a promise that they are going to receive land for the inheritance of their children forever. Well, given what happens in Kirtland, you know, that's. That doesn't. That doesn't quite work out. But there's also a promise that there will Be that they will be endowed with power from on high and be ready to take the gospel to the world. I think if you look at the events that transpire in Kirtland in 1836 and the expansion of the church's missionary activity, you could say that that was fulfilled. But, you know, I think if we went through all of Joseph's revelations, he could tick off things that work out and things that don't. And it's. It's always a mixed bag.

John Dehlin 2:09:37 Well, you know, I. I'll tell you in, you know, you talk about in your book, when people receive this revelation, they're given the chance to kind of go spend the night, you know, praying about it, to then decide if, you know, to fast and pray and then decide if they wanted to follow it. You know what that reminded me of? Can you guess?

John Turner 2:10:00 Fast and pray.

John Dehlin 2:10:01 It reminded me of Martin Harris.

John Turner 2:10:03 Yeah.

John Dehlin 2:10:04 And as the Book of Mormon witness, it's like, I'm not getting the revelation. We'll go off and retreat and pray and, you know, and it's almost like. And again, even with the Spirit from on high, we all love the hymn as Mormons, the Spirit of God, like a fire is burning. We. We know that there was a great spiritual outpouring eventually, but it's almost like if you're told you're going to experience something spiritual and you want to believe that you are going to experience something spiritual, it seems like there's a good chance you'll experience it. But that's very different than, like, you know, you'll be victorious in Zion's camp, or you will turn Kirtland, Ohio, or Independence, Missouri, into the ushering in of the millennium. It's like when we're talking about the actual physical world, I think the prophecies are a lot less likely to come true than if it's people's internal spiritual world. Those seem to be more. Much more likely to come true.

John Turner 2:11:06 Yeah, well, no, I'm sure that's the case. I do think it's interesting that this

John Dehlin 2:11:12 is such a. I should also mention the copyright. Right.

John Turner 2:11:15 Yeah.

John Dehlin 2:11:15 The copyright is physical. It doesn't happen. Right. Anyway, sorry I interrupted.

John Turner 2:11:20 No, no. I mean, I. So I think it is. Actually, we don't have that many records that talk about what transpire in this early 1831 conference. Clearly, there's uncertainty. It does sound like the majority of. Of people who are on the scene at least ascent to this revelation. Not all church members ultimately move to northeastern Ohio. The principle of gathering is something that, you know, a fair number of church members over the course of the 19th century. Even if they embrace it, in theory, they don't. You know, not everybody. Not everyone lives it out. But it is actually kind of remarkable that. I think it's remarkable that you have a large number of families, some in Fayette, in Manchester, Palmyra, some further to the east, where there are other branches of the church, Large numbers of church members. We're still not talking about huge numbers of people, but a large percentage of church members. They do accept this revolution. They do accept this new direction. It's pretty crazy that In January of 1831, you have this new. You have this new direction. This is less than a year after the organization of the church, a year before this. Joseph's duking it out with Abner Cole about his purloined excerpts from the Book of Mormon. This is still such a fledgling movement. Joseph is. Is rolling out new directions, new ideas, and it's a sign that this is going to be a wild ride for the remainder of Joseph Smith's lifetime.

John Dehlin 2:13:19 Yeah. And is it. Is it fair to say that. That for many, Kirtland ended up being a failed prophecy just by the fact that they end up fleeing and leaving it behind, and even the temple gets sold or ends up in the hands of another church? I know we're foreshadowing here, but is it safe to sort of conclude at the beginning as we're talking about the sacrifices made to go there and create it? Is it fair to say that overall Kirtland was a failed prophecy or not?

John Turner 2:13:50 I don't know.

John Dehlin 2:13:52 I know there are some aspects that came true, but overall, did Kirtland end up like Joseph prophesied, or is it fair to say it didn't?

John Turner 2:14:01 Overall, I don't know. That's a great question. I do think for. So you have this big rupture within the church, 1837, early 1838, when the community in Kirtland disintegrates. And those who still maintain their faith in Joseph's prophetic leadership, they, at that point, many of them follow him to Missouri. For those individuals, they're not looking back on Kirtland as a failed prophecy. I think they're looking at the completion and dedication of the Kirtland temple and its endowment of power. That's something that Joseph puts a lot of emphasis on in the mid-1830s. I think they see that as an important fulfillment of his. Of his leadership. I think the fact that things collapse afterwards, they tend to blame on apostates rather than failed prophecy. I think Actually, even for many of those who become disenchanted with Joseph's leadership, they blame it less on a failure of earlier prophecy than on failed decisions, failed choices, later failures of prophecy surrounding the bank and other things in Kirtland. So I would say I don't think there's a lot of evidence that church members by the late 1830s, I don't think they're looking back on, you know, these, these early revelations and, and seeing them as, as failures.

Closing Reflections and Series Preview

John Dehlin 2:15:54 Okay. All right. Well. Well, this was super fun. Today was super fun, super fascinating. And we're not in any way done. We are going to do, at least as I understand it, three more episodes and I've already read the next chapter for those who want to do the homework. The next chapter is chapter nine. I'm pulling it up now. It is called, let's see, chapter eight is Enoch, and chapter nine is called Flying High, 1831. So if y' all want to go ahead and read for next week's assignment, we're reading Joseph Smith, the Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by John G. Turner. Please buy it at Benchmark Books and if you can't buy it at Benchmark Books, buy it on Amazon or from Yale University Press. Any final words about today, John Turner, before we let you go?

John Turner 2:16:55 That was fun. I was just thinking, you know, the LDS church did just get the Kirtland temple back, John, so, you know, maybe things are looking up.

John Dehlin 2:17:04 So Joseph vindicated. If you make enough money over time, you can make a lot of miracles or prophecies come true with enough money. I don't mean to be cynical, but,

John Turner 2:17:16 you know, maybe so. No, we have lots of fun. We have a lot of fun stuff in the next chapter. Partly because the, you know, first months in particular in Kirtland, they're really a bit of a spiritual hot house. There's all sorts of fascinating things for us to talk about. I really hope we can get to the later chapters of this book. So let's keep it rolling.

John Dehlin 2:17:44 Okay. Well, yeah, and viewers, listeners, the way you make sure that this series continues, we only need $500 an episode, so that's $2,000 a month. And we'll continue this until we do the whole series, which would be epic, but the way you do that is just go to donorbox.org a lot of your donations were one time donations, which means they don't occur. We would love those of you that can just. 10 bucks a month, 20 bucks a month, 50 bucks a month, whatever you can afford, just go to donorbox.org Joseph Smith Become a monthly donor to this series because I think we all want to see it all the way through. I know I'm loving it and learning a lot. So please, please do continue. We promise you at least to go up through chapter 11, which isn't nothing, right?

John Turner 2:18:37 We're getting there. This is a lot of fun, John. Thanks to everyone who's listening and commenting and I appreciate the chance to talk with you, John de Lynn, about all these, all of these angles of Joseph Smith's life and look forward to the next.

John Dehlin 2:18:55 All right, thanks. John Turner, thanks for joining us. And thanks everyone for joining us today on Mormon Stories podcast. Thanks to Julie and Brooklyn for all they do to make this possible. And thanks to the regular old donors to Mormon Stories and the Open Stories Foundation. We rely on your donations to make all this possible. So thank you if you're already a donor. Also thanks to all the contributors to this series that have made so much of it possible already. Please email us@mormonstoriesmail.com Please comment on these episodes. Please like thumbs up and share this episode. And we love your feedback. So comment on YouTube, email us. And again go to donorbox.org Joseph Smith to contribute to the series. We really appreciate it. We feel lucky to be able to do what we do. So be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode not only of Mormon Stories, but also on Joseph Smith the podcast. All right, everybody, take care and we'll see you all very soon.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.