Baptisms for the Dead, Re-Baptism, and John C. Bennett

Welcome and Episode Overview

John Dehlin 0:01 Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast and the Joseph Smith podcast as well. I am your host for today, John Dehlin. It's December 17, 2025. Happy holidays. We are here to discuss chapter 22 of this book, Joseph Smith the Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by Dr. John G. Turner. This is, by my best count, episode 26 in our series on this book that we hope will continue. We are going to be talking about the doctrine of baptisms for the dead and its emergence. We are also going to be talking about one of the most nefarious and diabolical characters in the history of Mormonism, and especially during Joseph Smith's lifetime. I am referring, of course, to John C. Bennett. Not to be confused with John P. Delin or John G. Turner. It's a different John altogether, but we're going to be talking about him. We're even going to be talking about the doctrine of re baptism, which a lot of people ascribe or attribute to Brigham Young, if I'm remembering right. But it turns out it originates with the og and speaking of the og, I have John Turner with us today, ready and eager to school us. So welcome, John Turner. Happy holidays. What does your shirt say?

John Turner 1:38 This is my Nauvoo shirt, which I got when I visited the city of Joseph several years ago, and we finally got to Nauvoo, I think, last week, so it was time to bust out the Nauvoo shirt again.

John Dehlin 1:54 All right, well, I'm stoked. I'm here for it. And next chapter, polygamy heats up. The next chapter is called Ceilings, and John goes straight for it. So lots of really fascinating stuff on the horizon. I'll just say really quickly. This series can be experienced and enjoyed in the Mormon Stories podcast feed, of course, on YouTube and on Spotify. Please like and subscribe. We're only a few thousand away from 300,000 subscribers on YouTube, so I'd really appreciate it if remaining listeners and viewers would just subscribe on YouTube. It'd be fun to break the 300,000 barrier, and I think I'll count that. Good. We also just surpassed the 300,000 barrier on TikTok, which is fun, but mostly I only like that because it helps with the algorithms and it helps spread the news and the word. Obviously, this podcast exists at the generosity of the donors to the Mormon Stories podcast, so thank you. And also to the donors of the Joseph Smith podcast, if you want to donate to the Joseph Smith podcast, we promise that John Turner will get half of that revenue you can go to donorbox.org Joseph Smith and support this series. John is committed to at least completing the book, which is at least another, I don't know, 10 chapters, 10 episodes. Sometimes we do multiple episodes per chapter, but maybe we'll get him to do other episodes as well in the future. But please donate if you can. Thanks to all those who have donated. And I think that's it. John Turner. So how do you want to begin today, brother?

Reorienting to Nauvoo in Summer 1840

John Turner 3:47 Well, I think the starting point is first of all just to reorient everyone. So this is the city of Nauvoo in the summer of 1840. And last episode we talked about how Joseph quickly regrouped after escaping from the law in Missouri. I think a good thing to say at the outset is that he and the Saints had been incredibly successful at starting over. By the summer of 1840, hundreds, thousands of church members were streaming into Nauvoo. Nauvoo itself was a fledgling city. There's still other, you know, there are settlements across the river in Iowa. There's a lot of hope at this new beginning. And that's a pretty remarkable, pretty remarkable accomplishment given what happened to the saints in late 1830, late 1838, early 1839. So this beleaguered expelled people. They were sort of on the move again and things were going pretty well.

John Dehlin 5:09 I, I know that, John, you're probably tired of me. Continually amazed at how resilient Joseph Smith and the early Saints were in bouncing back from difficult situations. Yesterday I interviewed a woman who was raised flds and she was married during the time that Warren Jeffs got arrested. And she was the second wife. She saw her husband deliver his 12 year old daughter to Warren Jeffs and was there when Warren Jeffs forbade marriage, forbade sex, forbade even hugging and kissing and saying I love you to family members. And none of that shook her faith. And it just made me realize that as difficult it was in Nauvoo and in Missouri and in Kirtland, religious faith is a resilient thing. It's so resilient indeed.

John Turner 6:13 And I think Joseph was really good at establishing communities. I mean, we're sort of talking about the rise and fall of the communities that he established. But in terms of getting things off the ground, he was amazing. And I think, you know, that's a testimony to the faith of church members, the eagerness with which they embrace the doctrine of gathering and maybe also just an indication of what people with common purpose can accomplish in short order. It really is. It is pretty remarkable.

John Dehlin 6:59 Absolutely. And I think we talked last episode that Joseph, pretty quickly upon his return from Liberty jail and his arrival in Nauvoo, wanted to focus on the spiritual and the religious and less on the temporal. And I think that fits well with, with today's episode. Is that right?

John Turner 7:20 That's right. Now it never really works out because you can't be, you can't be a city organizer and also by temperament, just, you can't be a city organizer without being actively involved in all of the nitty gritty aspects of politics and economics. And Joseph, temperamentally, he also wasn't someone who wanted to stay in his study and, you know, write theological treaties or anything like that. So he could never really get away from this worldly concerns. But he goes on record, you know, he tells a church council in the spring of 1840, I really want to be able to focus on the spiritualities. I want to get back to the Egyptian records. I'd love to return to the translation of the Bible that I was working on in the early 1830s. And you know, church leaders are sympathetic to that. But they also remind him, you know, we kind of need your help with real estate and dealing with the church's debts, which are substantial because all of this land and building takes a lot of money. So they tell Joseph, you know, we'll get you some help, but you're indispensable when it comes to the, this worldly concerns of the, of the church.

Accountability After Missouri and New Beginnings

John Dehlin 8:50 I wrote at the top of chapter 22 on page 1 244, was there ever a moment of accountability for Missouri? Because, I mean, he starts over in Kirtland, he starts over in, you know, Missouri multiple times, and now he's starting over again. Were there ever like a group of people that just say, joseph, come on, we've got to do it differently now. You know, the way, the way that you've done things has been problematic. And we got, we got to set some things right so this doesn't keep happening. Are you aware of any moment of accountability in, in Nauvoo for what happened in the previous years?

John Turner 9:35 No. I mean, that would be the simple answer. Not, not in that sense. I do think the, you know, the widespread disaffection of high ranking church members and close associates in the aftermath of Kirtland, and that's a measure of accountability. There are a large number of people, Oliver Cowdery, The Whitmers, William McClellan, who essentially, through their disaffection, tell Joseph, we are no longer satisfied with your leadership. We don't see you as fit to lead the church going forward, at least not without significant repentance and course correction. I don't think Joseph's response is to reflect and say I've got to do things differently other than I can't permit the sort of dissent that tore the church apart in Kirtland. I can't permit a repetition of that. I think in the wake of Missouri, it's just a simpler calculus. Our enemies have, you know, they have, they have persecuted us, they have taken our property, they have killed our people, they have expelled us. I mean, that's what all of the saints for the most part, with few exceptions that we've talked about the vast majority of Saints, they are going to blame the enemies of the anti Mormons in Missouri.

John Dehlin 11:13 In the first paragraph on chapter 22, you mentioned that Joseph predicts that Nauvoo would become, quote, the greatest city in the world. I think I'm not going to ask you if that was a failed prophecy. I think that would be ham fisted. But he also writes that he's going to build a temple as glorious as Solomon's and he promises that the task, quote, shall impoverish no one but enrich thousands. And he goes on to write, the Saints would hear the clinging of coins in their pockets and they would gain access to spiritual power in the Lord's house. That almost gives me, gives, as they would say in modern vernacular, sort of Joel Osteen prosperity gospel vibes. Is that fair or not fair?

John Turner 12:06 I don't know if Joseph Smith smiled as much as Joel Osteen. I don't know that anybody smiles as much as Joel Osteen. So I guess I would say two things. Number one, I think Joseph's bravado increases in Nauvoo. Number two, as a city builder, as a community builder, Joseph and the church engage in a good amount of boosterism and they're trying to convince people to move to Nauvoo. You can see elements of this in the church's poem publications in England. And it's sort of in keeping with the way that other western land boosters operated. You know, the future's going to be glorious. This city is going to thrive. You're going to want to take part in it. And then I also think so I've been talking about how things are going well and I do think it's a remarkable turnaround from what happened in Missouri. For most church members, these are still tough times. There's still disease to reckon with, there's still poverty. I mean, this is not a wealthy movement. And So I think some of Joseph's, you know, some of that kind of talk that helps church members get through a difficult present with thoughts of the future.

John Dehlin 13:43 I mean, giving hope and meaning and purpose is a core. Having hope and meaning and purpose and basically something to keep you busy and engaged, anxiously engaged in a good cause, as they say in Mormonism. That's a core component to happiness and well being. And so I think it was helpful. I think it was effective for so many people. We've talked about that a lot.

John Turner 14:10 Yeah, I mean, and some of the specifics are. They're obviously a little farcical or ridiculous, especially given our vantage point. I mean, Nauvoob does become an impressive city. It doesn't become the greatest city in the world. The Nauvoo Temple is an impressive edifice. I don't know. I don't know that it rivals Solomon's, although probably Solomon's Temple circa 1000 B.C. it wasn't like the second Jewish temple, so you never know. But I don't think there's as much, there's not much gold in the Nauvoo Temple. So yeah, there's a little bit of ridiculous bravado to this. But I agree with what you said about instilling hope and purpose.

John Dehlin 15:01 The, the book moves to kind of a theme of, of death that I think is a precursor to the, the theme around baptisms for the dead. But I think I've asked you, I know I've asked you this in previous chapters, but again, you mentioned at the bottom of 244 that a few more dozen people die of malaria. And I always want to ask, is that just what it's like to settle non irrigated midwestern cities in the 19th century on the frontier? Or is this an act of irresponsibility for Joseph to, you know, to tell everybody to be settling here,

John Turner 15:45 so.

John Dehlin 15:45 Or something in the middle?

John Turner 15:47 Yeah, I mean, I don't think I, I wouldn't call it an act of irresponsibility. Now. I. It's certainly what became Nauvoo was not the most healthful environment at the start. I don't know to what extent Joseph and other church leaders anticipated that in the spring of 1839, had they investigated those land purchases and a few months later, they may have thought differently. It's also true that with each passing summer, the circumstances in Nauvoo improve as the saints drain and improve the land. They just go through. They go through, you know, a couple of tough years, the first being the worst. But it's Difficult. Again, in the summer of 1840,

Joseph Smith's Family Life and Growing Debts

John Dehlin 16:54 you mentioned that Emma gave birth to another son, which I think you say brings the children total to five.

John Turner 17:02 Correct.

John Dehlin 17:03 Four boys and Julia. And I think Julia was adopted. Right?

John Turner 17:06 Correct.

John Dehlin 17:08 And then Bishop Edward Partridge dies. Do you want to take it from there?

John Turner 17:15 Sure. So one of Joseph's stalwart followers and very much a pillar of practical and spiritual leadership in Missouri in particular, if you think back to quite a few episodes ago, Bishop Partridge is kind of steamed at Joseph in the summer of 1831, when he accompanies the prophet on Joseph's first trip to Independence and then is left there when Joseph heads back to Kirtland. But after the two men got over that, I guess you could say quarrel or rough patch in their relationship, Partridge was, like I said, a real pillar of the Missouri Church. He died at the age of 46 in May of 1840. And if we want to foreshadow a conversation for a future episode. Shortly after his death, Emma and Joseph invite Emily and Eliza Partridge, daughters of Bishop Partridge, into the Smith household. The immediate reason is that Emma needs help managing the household and caring for the new baby. Emily and Eliza eventually becomes plural wives of Joseph Smith three years after the time we're talking about. So in the spring of 1843, they

John Dehlin 19:14 were teenagers when entrusted to his care. Correct.

John Turner 19:18 They are both teenagers at the time. I think Emily is 16 when she moves into the household. Eliza's a couple of years older. So at the time of their ceiling to Joseph Smith, Emily, I think is 18 or 19, and her sister's maybe 21.

John Dehlin 19:41 But they're. They're kind of. Is it fair to say they're kind of foster children?

John Turner 19:46 I wouldn't. I wouldn't exactly say that. So it's a situation in which it's a. It's an opportune time for them to leave their own household. So it, in. In a way, it lightens the burden on. I'm blanking on her first name, but it's. It's lightens the burden on Bishop Partridge's widow and gives them some employment. And apparently they were very happy with the arrangement. Emily looked fondly back on joining the Smith household, helping to care for the baby. You know, said that Joseph and Emma treated her with. With great kindness. So sort of as they transition from their own childhood home into adulthood, it was. It was not. It wouldn't have been an out of the ordinary move, given the circumstances.

John Dehlin 20:49 Julia says Lydia might be the name we're searching for.

John Turner 20:52 That's correct.

John Dehlin 20:53 Thanks, Julia. All right, well, you mentioned that. We already mentioned that Joseph was eager to get back to. We'll call it a translation, for lack of a better word, of the Egyptian records. We also mentioned, I think, in last episode, that he had debts exceeding how much?

John Turner 21:17 John Turner, $150,000. These are not all. You know, these are not personal debts. First and foremost. They relate to primarily land purchases in Nauvoo, possibly some merchandising purchases as well. And typically when church leaders took on credit is often in the name of multiple individuals, including Joseph Smith. But other people were willing to extend credit to the church because they believed that Joseph ultimately could meet those obligations. So in the end, it was his responsibility.

Joseph Returns to Spiritual Teachings

John Dehlin 22:04 All right, well, you mentioned that, you know, as the. Joseph starts returning to the spiritual, you actually call spiritualities, which is a word I hadn't probably ever heard before. You mentioned one early teaching that Joseph Smith talks about the last ten tribes of Israel and that there was a long chunk, a large chunk of the planet that was taken up to heaven when the city of Enoch was translated. And people would. People might say that that's some niche, obscure version of Mormonism. As a kid, as a Mormon kid who grew up in Houston, you know, who used to go to Galveston and Corpus Christi, who frequented the Gulf of Mexico, I was taught in high school that not only was the City of Edict translated, but that the big, large gulf was where the city of Enoch used to be. And that. That's. That big gulf, you know, is the place where God lifted up all the earth as he lifted up an entire city. I guess I have to say that's a pretty large city. If it's the entire Gulf of Mexico or the Gulf of America, depending on, you know, how you. How you view things these days, we could.

John Turner 23:34 We could all compromise and just start calling it the Gulf of Enoch. That would really catch on.

John Dehlin 23:39 Or the Gulf of Joseph. I. I was dying to know what you thought of this idea as a Christian of God not just translating a city, but needing to remove the land along with the people and lifting this large chunk of land up to. Up into heaven. And I'm also wondering if you've wondered, John Turner, about where God stuck the land when he brought it up to heaven with the people. Did it go to Kolob? Where did it go?

John Turner 24:16 So these are great questions. So I'm just gonna. I'm gonna say, like, I love this kind of stuff. And so, first of all, these are this and quite a few other teachings that Joseph introduces in 1840. They're found in the letters of the. Primarily in the letters of the wives of two apostles. So Phoebe Woodruff, wife of Wilford Woodruff and Violet Kimball, wife of Heber C. Kimball and Phoebe Woodruff refers to Joseph's teachings as strange things and strong meat. So as an outsider, that should have

John Dehlin 25:06 been your chapter heading. Yeah, the chapter title, strange things and strong meat.

John Turner 25:11 As an outsider to the tradition, sometimes I encounter these things and I think, wow, that's a really zany idea. And you know, you, John Dehlin, are telling me, oh, yeah, you know, I've heard about this, but no, I was

John Dehlin 25:24 taught it as doctrine.

John Turner 25:26 Right, you were taught this. But I think it's, I think it's good to realize that for church members in 1840, when Joseph rolled out some of these ideas, these were kind of wild and they thought they were a little wild too. Now, I think what, what's going on here is there's this long standing Christian fascination with the lost tribes of Israel, the northern kingdom of Israel that sort of disappears from the biblical record after it's conquered by the Assyrians. And so there are all sorts of theories, you know, among them that the lost tribes migrate to the Americas, which is an idea that Joseph Smith doesn't embrace. A lot of outsiders get a little confused on that point because they think, oh, Jews in America, lost tribes. But Joseph, it begins with the family, not with, not with the lost tribes. Alternatively, the people speculate, maybe the lost tribes, they move north to Scandinavia or Russia or maybe they're somewhere else. But I think by 1840, it's starting to seem clear the lost tribes aren't anywhere on the earth that we can find. And so Joseph has this creative solution. They've been removed from the earth. And so technically here he's not talking about the city of Enoch, which might be responsible for the Gulf of America.

John Dehlin 27:15 But, you know, it's a different plot of land.

John Turner 27:19 Yeah, this is a different. This is a different.

John Dehlin 27:20 Sorry, sorry. I digressed, I digressed.

John Turner 27:24 And then I love this idea that at the time of Christ's sake, Second coming, this planetary fragment containing the lost tribes is going to be reunited with the earth. And it, you know, you're going to have the biggest earthquake ever. The earth is going to be reeling to and fro like a drunken man, which, it's a biblical phrase. I can't remember where it comes from. So here again we see Joseph putting his really creative twist on ideas that, you know, fascinate a lot of Christians.

John Dehlin 28:06 Yeah. And I'll just say another theory that I was taught growing up as possibly the most credible theory about where the lost 10 tribes went was that they were hiding in some subterranean polar ice cap sort of location.

John Turner 28:25 Right.

John Dehlin 28:25 And people are probably thinking this is absurd unless you grew up Mormon in the 80s and 90s. But, but if you read my high school journal, I'm seriously trying to figure this out. And it's like one of my top 10 things I'm thinking about as a Mormon teenager is like, when it, when is the second coming and where are the lost 10 tribes? You know, the. And I came out honestly. If you look at Joseph Fielding Smith's doctrines of salvation, he did three volumes. He was church historian and eventually prophet of the church, or Bruce R. McConkey's Mormon Doctrine, you'll see that prophets and revelators were teaching this stuff well through the 80s and really thought it was important. So I mean, if Joseph cared about it, then his, the subsequent prophets are going to care about it. But, but as silly as all this sounds, weirdly, it was very real to me growing up as a Latter Day Saint. And that's just the truth. So it's fun. It's fun to see you write about it. Okay, so what else, what else did. Did Joseph. What other truths did Joseph reveal?

John Turner 29:48 We're getting to baptism for the dead, but if listeners can bear with one more theological digression, one of the things that Joseph repeatedly does is, and you can see this with baptism for the dead, is he teases out meaning from, I would say, obscure biblical passages, like the sort of passages that most Christians, if they read the Bible, at most they're going to stop and puzzle about for a second and then they're going to move on because it doesn't, you know, it's hard to understand. So there's a passage in Paul's first letter to the Corinthians in which Paul comments that he dies daily, and then a little bit later on he refers to having fought with beasts at Ephesus. So what do these passages mean? Well, pretty much nobody thought that Paul literally died every day. Some people speculated about fighting with beasts at Ephesus. That could mean that Paul had contended against actual animals, perhaps in the arena, but it could also be something more, more symbolic. So Joseph put these two verses together and he speculated that the beasts that he fought with at Ephesus often killed him and he came to life again. This is a totally wild idea. When I was working on the book, I emailed a scholar of Paul's letters, with whom I'm friends and I said,

John Dehlin 31:51 not lds, Never mind, not lds, no.

John Turner 31:54 And I said, have you ever heard of anybody else drawing, you know, this conclusion about this passage? And she said, no, this is totally new to me. So, you know, Joseph Smith introduced her

John Dehlin 32:08 to

John Turner 32:10 a new interpretation of one of Paul's letters. Now. Yeah, go ahead.

John Dehlin 32:16 No, no, no, no, no, no, keep, unless you're going to move on. I was going to say one last thing, but keep going.

John Turner 32:22 Well, I was going to say, and again, these were new to church members at the time. That's why Phoebe Woodruff calls them strange things. So at the same time, this sort of thing, in a way it could be encouraging. So Phoebe Woodruff, she had a two year old daughter who died in the summer of 1840, and Joseph preaching and teaching about Paul dying and being raised back to life. She found it comforting. She reasoned, well, if Paul could be raised to life, my daughter could also be raised to life. So even some of these kind of wacky biblical interpretations, the way Joseph unveiled them and teased them out, they could, they could provide forms of encouragement to his people.

John Dehlin 33:30 Was she discouraged, though? No, like wondering. Okay, no, that wasn't a sign of her discouragement.

John Turner 33:38 Yeah, no, it was still a source of hope. And.

John Dehlin 33:41 Oh, okay.

John Turner 33:42 Most, for most Christians, you know that when, you know, they're not looking for their loved ones to immediately be resurrected, they're. They're looking toward their eventual resurrection.

John Dehlin 33:55 And, and I know that I'm continually asking the question, was Joseph Smith, Smith sincere in this series with you, now that I'm reflecting on this, like his desire to engage these scriptural stories and provide explanations and further clarifications to me suggests sincerity. I mean, it's possible he could be believing that it's all hogwash, but he wants to riff and create new revelations and fill in the gaps. But I think the Occam's razor simplest explanation is he really believed what he read in the Bible and wanted to provide further clarification and truth based on his biblical knowledge, which to me suggests a higher probability of sincerity and real belief, which I don't think you really probably ever question. But I think some of us who are frustrated or who have been frustrated have questioned at times.

John Turner 35:03 Well, I mean, I do. As I've said before, I think sincerity is a tricky thing to measure. Yeah, I think I feel confident saying that Joseph has a genuine evidenced curiosity about the Bible and about theological questions. To say that doesn't mean, well, Joseph told the truth when he talked about the golden plates. Or Joseph was always truthful and sincere in Every respect, but I agree with you, it doesn't. It seems to me we have a lot of evidence for Joseph's ongoing engagement with. Yeah, these spiritualities. And I don't see any reason to, to doubt that. I don't think it was artifice.

John Dehlin 35:58 Yeah, well, why don't. Should we talk about the emergence of the baptism for the dead doctrine now?

Baptism for the Dead Introduced and Explained

John Turner 36:05 Sure. So, and I'm just going to preface this with saying that to me, this is in a way, Joseph Smith at his most compelling. And I say that as a, you know, as an outsider to the tradition who probably 20 years ago regarded baptism for the dead as something utterly ridiculous, which is how most non Mormons interpreted the, the doctrine in the early 1840s. But now that I've spent more time studying this time period and studying in particular the way that church members respond to the doctrine when Joseph introduces it, I see it as a very successful, successful episode in his leadership and something that points to why thousands of people accepted his leadership and followed him, despite all of the setbacks that we've mentioned. So with that as a, as a preface, the theological impetus for baptism for the dead is, is pretty straightforward. Joseph Smith, his family, and large numbers of Protestant Americans are deeply worried about the fate of their loved ones who die outside of the faith. And for the Smith family, this becomes a particularly active question. After the death of Joseph's brother Alvin back in 1823, he had not had a conversion experience that would testify to his Christian faith. And so there's chatter at the time and maybe even teaching by the Presbyterian minister in Palmyra, maybe even at his funeral that Alvin is likely damned. That's really traumatic. And I think, you know, regardless of one's precise theology, I think that anxiety for the eternal fate of loved ones, that's pretty easy for us to understand. I mean, that's such a live issue today for, say, evangelical folks who might have family members that reject Christianity. It's certainly a live issue for Latter Day Saints who have family members leave the church. So the particulars can, can be a little bit different. But for the Smiths, that's a, that's an ongoing concern. It's a concern in 1823 when Alvin dies. And then it's a slightly different concern after the organization of the church because Joseph teaches that baptism is necessary for the remission of sins. Only baptism into Christ's true church counts for that purpose. And Alvin and by extension most human beings have, have died without that baptism. So there's, there's a real theological quandary. For this new movement.

John Dehlin 39:54 And tell me if it's based primarily in the biblical passage that says, or. Jesus says, except a man be born of the water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. And people interpret born of the water to mean baptism and born of the Spirit to be the Holy Ghost, the gift of the Holy Ghost or confirmation. And let me just also add, is this true that this interpretation is what maybe led the Catholic Church to baptize infants? Because you want to get them as soon as they come out of the mother's womb, because if they die without the baptism, they're damned. And this. This introduced the theme of infant baptism, which Joseph and others debated about, the Campbell Campbellites and others. Is that all kind of the milieu that Joseph and his family are swimming in or not?

John Turner 40:44 Yeah, no, I think that. I think that's fair. And he's also developed, you know, Joseph also develops this idea in the context of a Protestant culture that mostly rejects the idea that that baptism is strictly necessary for salvation. There are some Protestants who do think that it is a saving ritual. I think Sidney Rigdon believed that before he converted to Mormonism. Parley Pratt might have as well. So there are a few. There are a few Protestants who take a slightly different stance on the issue. But for most. For most Protestants, baptism is a sign of one's salvation or a response to one's faith. It's not a necessary step in order to be saved. I don't know if it's only that verse, John. There are probably others as well that Joseph and others draw on, but for them, it's pretty clear you can't enter the kingdom of God unless you're born of water and of spirit. So no baptism, no remission of sins, no salvation.

John Dehlin 42:12 Okay. And, yeah, I do remember reading that the Smith family was traumatized potentially by how that preacher discussed Alvin's death. And I think you told us that. When, when. When Joseph Smith Sr. Was baptized, didn't Joseph Wheat, Joseph Jr. Weep like he was really? He clearly was concerned about the souls of his family members.

John Turner 42:38 I think that's fair. So. Absolutely. And I do think gnaws at Joseph that this beloved brother died before the organization of the church. Joseph's clearly thinking about that in 1836 when he has a vision of Alvin in the celestial kingdom. You know, he wonders, how could that be? He, at the time, he. He simply proclaims that those who die without a knowledge of this gospel, who. Who would have received it, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God. So Essentially, you know, if Alvin had lived, he would have been baptized so that it'll. It'll be okay. He'll still inherit the celestial kingdom. He also muses, I think this is maybe 1838, that those who die without the chance to be baptized must have it here hereafter. So maybe there'll be some posthumous baptism.

John Dehlin 43:55 Yeah. And there is that scripture in the New Testament that I memorized for seminary scripture, Chase something like elsewhere, for those who are baptized for the dead, if the dead not rise at all, wherefore are they baptized for the dead? So weirdly, those words appear in the New Testament. Although Julia was curious if you have a sense for how traditional Christians even interpret that verse, because whenever I tried to make sense of it, it seemed nonsensical in the context. But I also can't read Hebrew or whatever language the New Testament. Greek. Yeah, Greek.

John Turner 44:36 So this. So what you just quoted is a verse from, again, first letter to the Corinthians, 1 Corinthians 15. It's part of a larger passage about how central hope in the resurrection and Christ's resurrection is for Christians. So you asked what other folks think about that verse. So one of Joseph's favorite books was Adam Clark's commentary on the Bible. There have been some scholars recently, like Colby Townsend, and also some folks at byu names are escaping me who have documented that Joseph seems to have used Clark's commentary when working on his translation of the Bible. Possibly it could have also been an influence on the Book of Mormon and some of Joseph's other productions. Anyway, so Clark was a wildly popular Methodist preacher and writer, would have been a name familiar to a lot of American Christians in the early 1800s. So Clark's commentary, I find this amusing. When he gets to 1 Corinthians 15:29 on baptism for the dead, he states very bluntly, this is the most difficult verse in the New Testament to understand. Something like that, like, I have no idea what this means. And he suggests that, you know, maybe it's a little bit more symbolic in the sense of when we're baptized, we are baptized for someone who is dead or will die. I think in general, it's a verse that has perplexed other Christians. Many have said, well, a straightforward reading of it suggests that some early Christians were baptized in an attempt to do something for those who were already dead, but we have no idea why they would be doing that. So it did not. You know, it's not something that has sparked something like what Joseph Smith introduces

John Dehlin 47:04 in Nauvoo and That's kind of an opening. If nobody can explain it, maybe Joseph can. Yeah, especially if he can solve some problems that are really nagging at him. And I think a lot of his revelation comes from him trying to make sense of Scripture. Isn't that fair?

John Turner 47:25 I think that's totally fair. And in this case, what it allows Joseph to do is it allows him to sort of untie this theological knot. Because I don't think for him it was satisfying to say, well, let's just hope that God will sort that out, or let's just presume that these people would be saved because he's teaching baptism is totally essential. And so this idea of baptism for the dead, it gives the saints something to do on behalf of their loved ones about whom they're anxious. You know, it gives them a ritual solution. It also seems that in addition to the Bible, Joseph is influenced by. By a report of a vision on the other side of the Atlantic. And this is a fascinating little detail, I think. The BYU scholar Christopher Blythe wrote an essay on this. It's a woman named Anne Booth, who was a Methodist convert to the church in Manchester, England. She had a vision of the place of departed spirits in which she saw none other than martyred Apostle David Padden, whom she had never met, but had heard about holding a key and locking. Unlocking the door to a prison. And when Padden goes inside this prison and he encounters none other than John Wesley, the founder of Methodism. And Patton teaches Wesley the necessity of baptism for the remission of sins. And a river of water appears. And Patton baptizes Wesley and ordains him into the priesthood. And then Wesley baptizes the other prisoners, who include many of Anne Booth's own loved ones who had lived and died Methodists. So she had the same theological anxiety that the Smith family had in that she has family members who died before they even had the chance to convert to Mormonism. So she has this vision of posthumous baptism that intersects with some of Joseph's speculations on the subject.

John Dehlin 50:13 Yeah, well, so that's kind of the background. How does it get. How does the revelation come? What do we know about the revelation coming and how it's disseminated and how it was received.

John Turner 50:29 Yeah, so one, you know, one final part of the context is that it's at this time that Joseph's own father, Joseph Smith Senior, dies. This is in late September of 1840. According to the memories of some family members, Joseph has talked with his father about baptism for the dead. And Joseph Senior asks his prophet Son to be baptized for Alvin immediately. And it's just a couple of weeks later at the church's October 1840 conference, that Joseph publicly instructs the saints about baptism for the dead. He tells them that he. He accepts it to some extent, the validity of Anne Booth's vision.

John Dehlin 51:40 Is it fair to say it was her idea or not? Did she spark this doctrine, or was he just thinking of it in parallel? I think he's.

John Turner 51:48 I think he's sort of thinking of it in parallel, but she may have. She may have helped Joseph sort of get over the hump to an actual solution, because Joseph's already said that those who die without the chance to be baptized must have it hereafter. And so an Booth essentially sees people being baptized as spirits. But Joseph then, in response to that, says, well, doesn't really make sense for spirits to be baptized, but those spirits could deputize living church members to be baptized on their behalf. And that baptism for the dead would release those spirits from prison and would allow family members to claim them in the resurrection and bring them into the celestial kingdom. And so Joseph essentially tells church members, you can be baptized on behalf of your loved ones, your dead loved ones, parents, grandparents, siblings, uncles, aunts, children, and you can bring about, you know, eternal family reunions in heaven.

John Dehlin 53:17 And how did. Okay, one question Julie was asking is, is this the first we hear of a spirit prison idea? Because this seems to represent an emerging of an early plan of salvation. Of course, the three degrees of glory haven't come yet.

John Turner 53:40 Right now, three degrees of glory. Joseph teaches that in the early 1830s, so.

John Dehlin 53:46 Really?

John Turner 53:47 Yeah.

John Dehlin 53:48 Oh, my gosh. I somehow forgot that.

John Turner 53:50 But okay, we've been at this for a while. John Dehlin. Don't worry. You can go back and listen to earlier.

John Dehlin 53:56 Oh, that's right. We talked about. We talked about Swedenborg. Right. As being a possible influence on that.

John Turner 54:04 I'm sorry, you know, I've now jogged your memory. So the idea of spirits in prison, that actually is a long standing, influential Christian idea. There's another New Testament passage, and First Peter, in which there's a reference to Jesus going to preach to spirits in prison. And it's another one of those confusing passages. But the Apostles Creed teaches that Jesus, after his crucifixion, descended into hell. And you can find all sorts of medieval artwork about Jesus sort of descending into hell, finding spirits in prison, opening the doors, and, you know, leading the captives to salvation. Now, the difference here is that these spirits are not in hell. They're in, you know, they're in a spirit realm. You know, they haven't been consigned. Consigned to hell. So again, this is kind of like a purgatory, right?

John Dehlin 55:25 Or limbo or whatever.

John Turner 55:26 It's more akin to that. So it's, again, you know, Joseph putting a different twist on something that had long interested other Christians.

John Dehlin 55:39 Yeah, yeah. And so the basic. The way. The way it ends up coming down to me, by the time I'm being raised in the church in the 1970s and 80s, it's that most of the people who've ever lived on the earth have not received a Mormon baptism, AKA a baptism with the proper authority from the one true church. And so they would all be going to hell because of the scripture in the New Testament saying a man must be born of the water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God. Therefore, faithful Mormons must build temples and be worthy. And then they build a baptismal font in Every temple with 12 oxen carrying the font representing the 12 tribes of Israel. And then what we need to do is do our genealogy and dig up all the names of all the people who have ever lived who have not been baptized by Mormons with the proper authority. And then we need to go down into the baptismal fonts in the temple and be baptized in their name. They'll be as spirits in the spirit prison, being taught the gospel by celestial missionaries, and they'll have the chance to accept or reject the baptism. And if they accept it, then they'll be able to not be damned and at least inherit the. The lowest degree of the three degrees of glory, meaning the telestial kingdom. But hopefully they can earn a higher level of heaven. And this, this ends up, this proxy work for the dead, as I'm sure we'll be discussing in future chapters, then becomes applied to the washings and anointings ceremony in the temple and the endowment ceremony in the temple, and then eventually eternal marriage and ceilings. And I know I'm giving away future chapters, but I just want, for those who just drop into this episode, that's kind of how this doctrine ends up making its way into Mormon theology. So how does it sort of emerge in 1840 Nauvoo?

Early Rituals and Systematizing Baptism for the Dead

John Turner 58:03 Great, great question and great summary. And of course, at first it's not so systematic. It's essentially plunge into the Mississippi river and be baptized for your loved ones. And, you know, someone will officiate. It'll be just like a regular baptism, but it's being done on somebody else's behalf. And one of the things I find Remarkable, because this is an unusual idea. The saints embrace it with tremendous enthusiasm. And that's not because they lap up everything Joseph introduces. So sometimes, you know, he introduces a new teaching and everybody's just a little puzzled or quizzical about it. And we certainly know that when he introduces plural marriage, that becomes intensely controversial and many people reject it. In this case, the saints love the idea. So Phoebe Woodruff writes, they are going forward in multitudes. And I would just also say this is now middle October 1840. Mississippi River's probably getting cold. This is, you know, it's muddy, but people get to it. And Joseph's own family members embrace this new ritual. Emma Smith is baptized for her father, Isaac Hale, and a deceased sister, Lucy Max Smith, is baptized on behalf of both of her parents. Hyrum Smith is baptized for Alvin Smith. So people are very enthusiastic to the point that they want to save others beyond their immediate families. So no less than three individuals are baptized on behalf of George Washington. I think that's not because it takes three baptisms to save the father of the country, but because so many people want to save him. William Henry Harrison, he just become president earlier that year and then died a few weeks later. The saints are baptized for him as well.

John Dehlin 1:00:35 Can I just say, just as a matter of fun, John de Lin lore for the two people who might be interested, when I was at byu, I dated a girl named Elisa whose dad had ms, and he was bedridden all day long in his final years before he died of Ms. And all he would do as a bedridden man with Ms. Would be to do genealogical research to extract names. And he would. Then he would do his best to try and extract names of notable historical figures in addition to just general names. And then he would do these temple visits with friends and family where they would take names that he extracted and do the temple work for them. And believe it or not, John Turner, I was given the name of Aldous Huxley, if my memory is correct, to do the temple work for Aldous Huxley, author of A Brave New World, because apparently, according to Brent Probst, Aldous Huxley hadn't had his work done for him yet. So I did it.

John Turner 1:01:55 You did a brave new baptism.

John Dehlin 1:01:57 What's a brave new baptism that you said? Yeah, anyway, it's. It's a quirky thing in our history, and obviously we've gotten in trouble. A lot of well intended Mormons have been baptized for Holocaust victims. And I guess a lot of Jewish organizations haven't appreciated that. What they consider to be desecration of their loved ones. Yeah, it's always with good intention, right?

John Turner 1:02:29 Yeah, well. And I think there's just this long history of the forced conversion of Jews to Christianity that that makes it particularly objectionable. I mean, I. It has also occurred to me that if the LDS Church had announced, we're going to save everybody but the Jews, that might also not go over all that well. So, you know, some of these things are, you know, they're just tricky to negotiate. You know, I. I think at the start, this is not a systematic. You know, this is not a systematic practice with all of the genealogical research and all of the strict rules about who you can be baptized for. It's. And it's very straightforward. People walk into the river to be baptized for, you know, their children, their parents, their grandparents, their aunts and uncles. Sometimes they're close friends. So it's very immediate personal response.

John Dehlin 1:03:36 I think Mormons, Latter Day Saints will find it interesting that they didn't do this in the temple because there wasn't a temple to do it in yet, and that they're doing it in the Mississippi river, because I think most modern day Latter Day Saints are going to think you can only do that in the temple, but that's apparently not true.

John Turner 1:03:54 Not true. And once the Nauvoo Temple construction gets underway, at a certain point, Joseph says, from now on, baptisms for the dead, we're going to do them in the temple font. But since baptism for the dead predates construction of the temple, the. The river, that's the by far the best available option.

John Dehlin 1:04:21 All right, well, anything else we want to say about baptism for the dead? I. I guess I have one last thing. I'll say, but I want to give you a chance first, and then I'll.

John Turner 1:04:33 Yeah. So I would say this does point to Joseph's theological creativity. It also, I think, speaks to his success as a religious leader, particularly as someone who is innovative with ritual. And I think the introduction of ritual, that was both theologically rich but also just visceral. That was something that was very attractive to Joseph's followers in a way that I think would have been hard to predict. So. And obviously, walking into the Mississippi river to be baptized, that's a very physical, visceral act. You know, in the run up to the Kirtland Temple, Joseph introduces washings and then anointing with oil. That's also something, you know, very physical, the washing of feet also. And church members do again and again respond really positively to this element of Joseph's leadership. And for me that's a key answer to the question of why did so many people follow this guy? Joseph offered them compelling solutions to their deepest needs. And this went to the heart of theological anxieties that a lot of American Christians had. And of course some of these things are just laughable to outsiders. But, and you know, obviously church members were aware of this Baptism for the dead got, got some good satirical coverage in newspapers at the time. But this is, this teaching in particular is something that church members responded to and treasured.

John Dehlin 1:06:55 I'll just say one final personal note of reflection. I felt very torn about this idea of proxy work for the dead for a long time, both as a believing Mormon and not. I, I thought, I've often when I felt critical of it, well, originally I thought it was the most beautiful thing. And even now the church teaches it's one of the most amazing Mormon doctrines because it provides the means of salvation for all of mankind. Whereas in other words, Mormonism, modern times likes to tout itself as, as perhaps the most inclusive religion in the world because there's no other religion that has a theology that pretty much includes, gets everyone into heaven other than the sons of perdition, which some Mormons say will be counted less than the fingers on two hands. And so, you know, the idea of a non exclusive God that really wants everyone to return to him in some form or fashion, I think that's beautiful. I also think this idea of genealogy and, and connecting the hearts of the children with their fathers, metaphorically speaking, through genealogy, is beautiful. So on the face it's beautiful. As I started thinking about the implications of it and the massive time of the collective amount of time and money that all the millions of Latter Day Saints across two centuries and into the millennium, we were taught that in the millennium there's going to be a thousand years in the millennium. You're nodding, John Turner. What was I taught?

John Turner 1:08:43 Well, that's a time to accelerate this work. Right. And get it all done.

John Dehlin 1:08:49 Go ahead, go ahead.

John Turner 1:08:51 Am I right about that?

John Dehlin 1:08:52 Yeah. If you do the math and you look at how many Mormons there are and how many people are on the earth and how many have died in the past and how many are dying each day. The math doesn't math. Mormons could never have enough time in their lives to do all the proxy work for all the dead people who are dying now, let alone who have ever lived on the planet. Even if you could find all the names, which you can't because of pre historical civilization. So where in the world are humans Going to get the time to do all these baptisms for these billions and billions and billions of dead people. And the answer I got growing up was the those thousand years in the millennium are literally for all the righteous people who weren't burned up in the fire of Jesus's rapture or second coming. They're literally gonna spend all their waking hours in the temple for a thousand years doing this proxy work for the dead. And again. Okay, great, that's beautiful. Now I know what the thousand years of the millennium are for. But then you start thinking about all the people starving or illiterate or not having clean water or war, and you just think, if Mormons fall, the active Mormons across two centuries, we're going to be volunteering their time. Why don't they focus on the living and on poverty and disease and war and famine, illiteracy. Like, way better use of time and resources than a bunch of wealthy or middle class or non wealthy Mormons spending three hours to get dressed to go to a temple to get baptized for dead people. When you would assume that if God could make a proxy work for the dead be valid, why couldn't he make spirit work for the dead be valid and just allow spiritual baptisms and spiritual marriages and spiritual endowments in the spirit prison? Like, why couldn't God wave that magic wand if he could allow it to happen via proxy? And it, this, this, this thing that on, like we've already seen how many of Joseph's ideas fail or, or go by the wayside or he changes. If this was just some idea that he had, what a crazy thing that, that 200 years later there's 300 temples announced and Mormons, hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Mormons every year are spending all this precious time and money just getting baptized and sealed and endowed for dead people. To some it seems like a huge catastrophic waste of time and resources. And I'll just say, the final thing I'll say is I once said to my wife's father, who's a psychiatrist, what I just told you, and the thing that he said to me was really beautiful. He said, it turns out giving people meaning and purpose is a really difficult thing. And if elderly Mormons feel a sense of meaning and purpose by doing all this work for the dead along with younger and living faithful Mormons, maybe that's not such a bad thing, given how hard it is to give people meaning and purpose. So anyway, those are my musings. I'm curious, I don't expect you to have reactions to that. But for those who are tuning in, not knowing anything about this stuff, I felt like I wanted to at least share some of that perspective.

John Turner 1:12:39 Yeah, no, it's fast. That's fascinating. And both angles of it, you know, that they make total sense. Right. I mean, first of all, you could say if it's not actually efficacious, right. Then it's a colossal waste of time, although. And money perspective of a professional historian, you know, what you can find on family search and ancestry is a big gift to the world. And in a way, you know, you can't actually do genealogical research, you know, back into the 6th century anyway, so it's kind of impossible to get everyone. I guess the first thing I'd say is most of us, including myself, waste time in worse ways. You know, like, you know, genealogical research and temple work. That's probably better than doom scrolling or,

John Dehlin 1:13:44 you know, listening to my podcast.

John Turner 1:13:48 Well, I don't know about that. No, that's, that's valuable. You can do that in the millennium. You can listen to it all.

John Dehlin 1:13:56 It would take about the millennium to listen to all of Barbara's story.

John Turner 1:14:02 So, yeah, I mean, I think, I think the thing is if, if you don't buy in most religious activity outside of what sounds strictly practical and humanitarian, sounds like a waste of time. Right. Do you really need, does anybody need to hear sermons on, you know, Ezekiel? Does anybody need to week after week celebrate the Eucharist? But I think, you know, there, there as you pointed to in what your family member said, you know, there, there, there is sort of a secular, even a secular reason for why these things can be valuable and, and good for people. I think also I feel a bit of an attraction to some of these elements of Joseph Smith's teaching because Protestantism to some extent is so intensely individualistic. I mean, I think that can be overstated, but ultimately you're only really responsible for yourself and it can breed a certain, I think, spiritual narcissism. So thinking about the unit of salvation as being more than the individual, I do, I do like something about that. I guess that's, that's about the extent of, of my musings on the subject. John de Lynn.

Temple Worship and the Death of Joseph Smith Sr.

John Dehlin 1:15:40 Well, thanks. This is fun and I appreciate it. And I will say that this is the bulk of the work that happens in Mormon temples. There's, I don't know, 150 operational temples across the world right now, and I think like over 300 announced and they're building them all the time. And the bulk of what happens in these temples is work for the dead. But it's not just baptisms for the dead. It's washings and anointings for the dead, endowments for the dead, and marriage ceilings for the dead. And actual. The only other thing that happens other than the second endowment in the Mormon temples, which is super rare, is just celestial marriages to living Mormons getting married. But that's the minority of time people spend in the temple, and it's an incredibly sacred thing for active, believing, faithful Mormons. I don't mean to make light of it or even disparage it. These are just kind of secular musings about things I've thought about both as a believer and as someone who maybe isn't as much of a believer these days. So thanks. Thanks for being a good sport. John Turner. And viewers and listeners, feel free to share your comments and opinions in the comments on YouTube and on Spotify. And if you want to talk about how sacred the temple is to you, we want to hear it. If you want to talk about how you hate this conversation or love it or if you sympathize with it, I want to hear that, too. All right, so it looks like there's a few more people that pass away in Nauvoo, and specifically Joseph Smith Senior. Should we. Should we move to that?

John Turner 1:17:25 Sure. I mean, that's. That is something that Joseph had anticipated on a number of occasions in recent years. You know, Joseph's father had been. Had been increasingly frail for some time. But it does seem to be a very tender, tender moment for the Smith family. Joseph Jr. And his siblings, they're able to be at their father's bedside. He blesses them sort of in accordance with biblical precedent, you know, as the biblical Jacob had blessed his sons. I think Joseph, I mean, he clearly had a real tender spot for his dad. It seemed like Joseph really had a desire to honor, honor his father, despite his father's infirmities and shortcomings in a way that was deeply meaningful to Joseph Senior. So they had a. They had a very close relationship. Lucy Mack Smith, I think she was, in many ways, she was the force in the family as Joseph was coming of age. But he had very tender feelings toward his dad.

John Dehlin 1:19:04 And his dad didn't need work for the dead, or at least he didn't need baptism for the dead. I imagine he did get sealed posthumously to his wife Lucy, and may have been sealed. Well, that's the other thing that happens is families can be sealed to each other, children to their parents in Mormon temples, if the children weren't born as they Say, under the covenant, meaning born to parents who are already sealed in the temple when they were born. So I'm sure that was a huge relief to Joseph, but also a really sad moment for the Smith family because Joseph loved his dad. Right. I mean, they were. Yeah, they were super close. They were, yeah.

John Turner 1:19:57 And I, you know, I'm mostly saying really complimentary things about Joseph Smith this week because we have. Not just because I think it's correct, but also, you know, we've got tough stuff coming up. I will just say that I once wrote a piece for Wayfair and about.

John Dehlin 1:20:18 That's a progressive Mormon, faithful, progressive Mormon magazine published by the folks at Faith Matters. Correct?

John Turner 1:20:26 Correct. Always with a lot of beautiful, beautiful writing and thoughtful, thoughtful reflection. And one of the things that occurred to me is that Joseph Smith was better in this respect than I was vis a vis my own dad. My. My dad became rather infirm at a youngish age. He got Parkinson's when he was in his mid-40s and, you know, disconnected to that. We were not terribly close. I didn't think he was involved with me as much as he should have been. So I saw a lot of his shortcomings and weaknesses, and I think in response, I more often ignored him or even felt a bit of contempt at times. Joseph Jr. Did not act that way toward Joseph Sr. And I'm not saying. I am not saying that people should always be deferential and warm and whatever toward their fathers, no matter how those fathers act, because they're definitely all sorts of particular circumstances. But I will say Joseph Jr. Was good to his dad. And, you know, that's. That's something that I find admirable given their circumstances.

John Dehlin 1:22:14 I love it. Really quickly, I don't know, did I read about rebaptism in this chapter or did I read ahead and I'm confusing the two?

Re-Baptism Practices and John C. Bennett's Rise

John Turner 1:22:23 No, you did.

John Dehlin 1:22:25 Okay.

John Turner 1:22:26 Joseph also taught that the Saints could be re baptized again for a work of repentance or recommitment. And Joseph, he practiced what he preached. He and Signe Rigdon, this is the next spring, they wade into the Mississippi and they baptize each other. And Joseph encouraged.

John Dehlin 1:22:53 Re baptized each other. Right.

John Turner 1:22:54 Re baptized each other.

John Dehlin 1:22:55 Yeah.

John Turner 1:22:56 And Joseph encourages church members to follow that example. Hundreds of them do. Joseph also teaches that church members can be baptized for their health. So if they're sick or infirm, that baptism can be, you know, an efficacious ritual, you know, a form of ministry for those circumstances. And so this is incredibly foreign to the way that Protestant and Catholic Christians have thought about baptism as something that should be a once in a lifetime thing. For Joseph Smith, baptism was something that the Saints could do over and over again.

John Dehlin 1:23:48 Yeah. And Brigham Young really, really expanded on that, if my memory is correct. And it's. It's one of those weird doctrines that was like, pervasive and almost foundational for what, half a century or more. And then all of a sudden, not only does it disappear, but like, everyone forgets that it ever happened. And I would have, I would have probably made it to my 30s before I ever heard that there were ever re baptisms, you know, in the, in the 1990s, you know what I'm saying?

John Turner 1:24:28 Yeah, yeah. And it's not exactly clear why Joseph sets that example. In the spring of 1841, Brigham Young tended to do so at particular times of importance. So I think after the Saints had initially reached the Salt Lake Valley, and then again during the Mormon reformation in the mid-1850s, he teaches everyone, everyone should be rebaptized. And then also re baptism is a way of coming back into the fold after one's been cut off from the church. So a more glaring need for repentance in those cases.

John Dehlin 1:25:16 But, but yeah, Julie is asking, are we talking about people who are excommunicated at the church and. No, that would be the minority. What we're talking about are faithful members who just. I. I imagine there was like, oh, I've been sinning. Wouldn't it be great to feel washed, have my sins washed clean again? I imagine there was some of that, and I imagine there's some that's like, hey, I just want to recommit. I want to like, have a new rebirth and remake my covenants and recommit to the church. What a better way than to just have another baptism.

John Turner 1:25:49 Exactly. It's sort of like in a way, in an evangelical context, responding to an altar call at several times of one's life instead of just once being born again and again.

John Dehlin 1:26:07 Yeah, yeah, I kind of like it never. Mormons and even Mormons should know that this is not allowed today. If I went to my Mormon bishop, I mean, well, I guess excommunicated people can be re baptized, but regular old members who are faithful, if they go and ask, can I get rebaptized? I'm pretty sure the answer is going to be no. And that pretty much never happens because most people don't know that it ever did. So they wouldn't know to ask, which is really mind blowing. The memory, public consciousness, memory can be so fleeting.

John Turner 1:26:46 Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:26:47 Yeah. All right. Well, speaking of baptism, you have a nice segue in your book. On page 250, you write one baptism that had a proud, profound influence on the remainder of Joseph Smith's life. I'm paraphrasing. Was John C. Bennett. Should we now introduce perhaps the most nefarious of all? Is John C. Bennett the most nefarious character in the history of Mormonism, or would you say that title for someone else? Ooh, that's a hot take. That's a hot question.

John Turner 1:27:20 Nefarious Mormon top 10. Listen, sometime I'm worried you'd put Brigham

John Dehlin 1:27:25 Young on that after writing a book on Brigham Young.

John Turner 1:27:28 I don't know. John D. Lee. Yeah, there's a few enforcers you could get on that list. There's. There's some. There's some folks. What would be fun is if you did a general survey of, like, top five nefarious Mormons in history. You'd get such a wide variety of answers.

John Dehlin 1:27:50 Porter Rockwell. Right.

John Turner 1:27:54 I mean, a lot of people like Porter Rockwell.

John Dehlin 1:27:56 So Jacob Hamblin, Was that the guy who was super violent? Anyway, I'm putting you on the spot.

John Turner 1:28:04 Yeah, there are a few. So. But no John C. Bennett. He is someone who just connects with Joseph out of the blue. The simplest way of describing him is he is just a. He is a hustler and a huckster who's always selling. Selling something from diplomas to medicine to later on. I think chickens is this Plymouth Rocks variety of chicken that he later pedals.

John Dehlin 1:28:44 Someone says he invented ketchup or something like it. Have you heard that?

John Turner 1:28:48 It's something like it? I think it'd be hard to actually claim the title. But he also sells political influence, and that's what gets him on Joseph Smith's radar screen. He starts writing letters to Joseph essentially suggesting that he can help church leaders make connections with influential politicians in Springfield, the state capital.

John Dehlin 1:29:24 Didn't he come to Illinois with a little bit of scandal in his past?

John Turner 1:29:29 Yeah, and I. You know, I don't know that that was. I don't think that was necessarily known to Joseph at the time. So he had been expelled from a Masonic lodge in Ohio in 1834. I can't remember the reasons for the expulsion. And according to later reports from her family and friends, Bennett had been disloyal and. And possibly abusive toward his first wife, a woman named Mary Barker. And so he had a very checkered

John Dehlin 1:30:11 past, and he kind of abandoned her. Is that fair to say?

John Turner 1:30:15 And he abandoned her. I think he might have accused her of abandoning him as well. It does seem, though, that he. I feel pretty confident in saying that he's responsible for the marriage's dissolution.

John Dehlin 1:30:29 Okay, so he had a checkered pass, but Joseph probably didn't know a lot about that. He just saw somebody who's willing to help out.

John Turner 1:30:37 He saw somebody who was willing to help out. And Joseph offers him encouragement, encourages him to come to Nauvoo. I think Bennett has been suggesting that as well. He shows up, he gets baptized, and he speaks at the same October 1840 conference at which Joseph teaches about baptism for the dead. And he also, you know, he basically presents himself as a political mover and shaker, and church leaders send him back to Springfield to negotiate legislation that will grant the city of Nauvoo powers and privileges.

John Dehlin 1:31:37 Yeah, so it's this Nauvoo charter that he architects.

John Turner 1:31:42 Correct.

John Dehlin 1:31:43 Spearheads.

John Turner 1:31:45 Correct. And it's a, it's, it's. I think it's a series of legislative acts that end up getting referred to as the Nauvoo Charter. There's a few provisions that are significant. I don't know how much we want to get into the weeds. Probably one of the, One of the more well known privileges is it creates the Nauvoo Legion, which is a branch of the state militia and at the disposal of Nauvoo's mayor, ultimately subject to state authority. It also gave the Nauvoo City council the authority to issue writs of habeas corpus if officers from other jurisdiction arrested a city resident. So that's a rather technical point, but it becomes very important in later chapters. I think it also created a framework or the privilege for the creation of a university in Nauvoo that doesn't amount to anything individually. Some of these provisions are things that you can find in, in the acts that incorporate other jurisdictions in Illinois. Collectively, though, it, you know, they provide a legal framework by which church leaders can control Nauvoo's government and courts and militia, essentially. And the, you know, church leaders eventually kind of expand on some of these powers and privileges. It allows them to fashion their own city state on the Mississippi. And increasingly, as the years pass, both church leaders and anti Mormons think of Nauvoo along those lines.

John Dehlin 1:34:03 And possibly, to put a fine point on it, John Turner, tell me if I'm wrong. The reason why this is even brought up is because, number one, well, any city in Illinois, and I assume in the United States, needed to be granted a charter for it to have legal standing in any given state. And so Granting a city charter is normal business. What's noteworthy is Nauvoo got. Got some advantages or some privileges or some extra powers that would not be normal. That. That. That, number one, come into play later in. In the tensions that arise. So, for example, this Nauvoo militia that we just talked about, you know, we know that Joseph was, number one, fearful of the Saints being massacred again. But number two, we're gonna. You're gonna be talking about in this chapter if. If not in the next one, about how Joseph would pull the militia together and dress up in Napoleon clothes and march around neighboring cities almost as if to intimidate and warn surrounding cities. Don't mess with us. We've got a really large militia. I've heard that. That this militia ends up growing to be one of the largest militias, let's just say city or state militias in the nation at the time. So, you know, it ends up being something that causes a lot of distress for the surrounding cities that may have even led to the fear and persecution of Joseph and the Saints because it was so distressing. Is that. That fair to say?

The Nauvoo Charter and Political Power

John Turner 1:35:54 Yes, and I think so. What you're. You're making a proper distinction between the basic fact of a city charter with some of these privileges and what the Saints do with it. So when these pieces of legislation are passed and approved, they're not at all controversial. In fact, they have bipartisan support in the Illinois state legislature. A couple of famous people approve of them. Stephen Douglas, who's a Democrat. Abraham Lincoln.

John Dehlin 1:36:32 Lincoln. Douglas. Lincoln. Douglas. Debate.

John Turner 1:36:36 Yeah. Lincoln's the Whig. Both parties. This is no problem. This sails through the state legislature. It's approved by the governor, by the state supreme court. So then think about what the Saints do with the Nauvoo Legion, as you alluded to. Well, one of the first things they do is the officers of the Nauvoo Legion, they choose Joseph as the militia's lieutenant general. Now, the only other American who had ever received that rank was George Washington back in 1798. So there's, you know, there's a bit of, you know, element. Yeah, a hubris for sure. Now, the state government doesn't pay any attention to this at the time the governor signs Joseph's commission. And as you. As. As you suggested, ultimately, I think there's a couple thousand Mormon men in the Nauvoo Legion. Joseph eventually appears before them in a resplendent uniform, and other people eventually get alarmed at the militia's size and displays of power. Similarly, that ability to issue writs of habeas corpus in certain circumstances, well that's not unreasonable. But a couple of years later, the city council passes legislation suggesting it can issue writs of habeas corpus to free people from arrest in pretty much any circumstance. So essentially Joseph and church leaders, they take these privileges and really run with them in ways that other, that state politicians haven't anticipated and in ways that alarm a lot of non Mormons.

John Dehlin 1:38:44 And to put, put these powers in the hand of a prophet who in effect runs the city at first through John C. Bennett almost as a puppet. But eventually Joseph, if I'm not wrong, becomes the mayor and he becomes the chief justice and he becomes the, you know, he already is the head of the militia, like, and he's saying he's the prophet of God and he wants to become the king of the world. Crowned, crowned king of the world someday. Like it becomes, it becomes probably way too much power for any one individual to hold in a civilized society. It sort of becomes almost a theocracy. And I'm sure that if we went back in time to the Illinois legislature and said, hey, now that you know what's going to happen, are you sure you want to grant these powers? I'm sure they would have second thoughts, fair to say.

John Turner 1:39:36 Oh, totally fair to say. And what, what really becomes one of the things that leads to Joseph's death is a lot of opposition crystallizes over the fact that as far as anti Mormons are concerned, Joseph makes himself unaccountable to the law outside the city. And so yes, and the Nauvoo charter becomes a bit of a political hot potato. One party commits itself to repealing it and it ultimately is repealed after Joseph's murder. So a couple of things I think you could take away here at the start, there actually is bipartisan sympathy for the Mormons. So that's how you get the, the charter passed. It's sort of a era of good feelings toward Mormons. And you know, Bennett does Joseph a significant service, does the church a significant service in orchestrating this legislation. So this guy shows up, promises he can do great things, does those things and gets rewarded with, you know, high positions in the city government, in the militia and in the church.

John Dehlin 1:41:16 Yeah. And you know, if Joseph had probably a virtue and a weakness, it's in his willingness to quickly trust and empower people that he just meets. And I think Joseph will soon, even in the, in maybe in a chapter or two, soon rue the day that he brought John C. Bennett into his inner circle, didn't just make him mayor and I think head of the legion or something, but also co president of the church, like within six months or a year. Right?

John Turner 1:41:51 Yeah, it's a. It's a really quick ascent. Definitely there needed to be a more thorough vetting process. That's absolutely the case. So, you know, we know there are tumultuous years to complete this book, John de Lynn. But I think it's worth considering. Joseph is in a really strong position. At the end of 1840, the church is in a really strong position. They've regrouped. They have a city to which thousands of church members are flocking. They've just started work on the Nauvoo Temple coring stone for it. Nauvoo has all of this legislation supported by both political parties in Illinois. That's kind of remarkable. Things are going really well. Joseph has been. Has introduced this new ritual that his people have embraced with tremendous enthusiasm. So this is, I would say, what could go.

John Dehlin 1:43:10 What could go wrong?

John Turner 1:43:11 Well, a lot. A lot went wrong. But, you know, we've. We've. We. In a way, we've been here before.

John Dehlin 1:43:18 You know, it reminds me of the Kirtland, you know, temple dedication and the euphoria that preceded the Fanny Algeria scandal and the Kirtland bank scandal.

John Turner 1:43:30 Exactly. So Joseph had a tremendous ability to get communities off the ground. He had a tremendous ability to speak to the theological. Theological concerns of his people. He also, you know, he had an ability to. To seek out allies. This is also an impressive political success. So there's a. There's a lot of success. And it seems that the future of Nauvoo is incredibly bright.

John Dehlin 1:44:10 Yeah. And I think behind it all. Just to summarize this chapter. Behind it all, I think the reason why I think this chapter is so important for me is because you can. You can. We can all. And we will talk for very long about how problematic polygamy was. I do think it's fair to say that if there's one. This is my opinion. Tell me if you think I'm wrong. If there's one doctrine that underpinned that was most central to Joseph's, we'll just call it essential theology. It's the idea of sealing people together in one huge, large family in the afterlife. And you could even argue that polygamy was just sort of that doctrine gone awry along with, you know, what. What eventually becomes these dynastic ceilings. Like, I think Joseph. I think it's okay to say love Joseph or hate him. He had a big love for people, a big Love for family. And he really earnestly desired for everyone to be sealed into big one large family someday in heaven. And I think that's part of what this chapter strikes at. I'll pause. Does that, does that sound reasonable? JOHN TURNER?

John Turner 1:45:46 I think that's reasonable. I also, I will say when, I mean, the church has to substantially remake itself in the early 20th century after the abandonment of polygamy. And the fact that the 20th century church is able to preserve those elements of Joseph's theology that you just referenced while jettisoning his most controversial innovation. That was a hard thing for the 20th century, early 20th century church to pull off. It also speaks to the fact that there was. Coherence is maybe too strong of a term. You know, I don't, I don't know that Joseph was really a super systematic thinker, but there's a certain coherence and attraction in that theological foundation. So, yeah, I think that you put it well.

Closing Thoughts and Book Recommendation

John Dehlin 1:47:03 All right. And then the second thing that I'm left this chapter with is like, Joseph survived and escaped from New York. He survived and escaped from Kirtland, Ohio. He survives and escapes from Missouri, and then he sets up Nauvoo in Illinois. And I think in his mind he's thinking and feeling what has happened so many times before is never going to happen again, and I'm going to make sure of it. In other words, the. His people. His. His people dissolving in scandal and, and government intervention and you know, opposition and ultimately, you know, being cast out. I think he is doing his best to make sure what has happened before will not ever happen again.

John Turner 1:48:01 Yeah, and I will, just as a way of teasing what's coming, you know, also in the fall of 1840, on the heels of this tremendous success with the introduction of baptism for the dead and these successful negotiations with state politicians, Joseph is away from public view, you know, secretly or privately, let's just say privately, meeting with a few trusted followers and beginning to talk to them about plural marriage, which. In terms of his personal practice begins shortly after what we've talked about in the spring of 1841.

John Dehlin 1:49:02 So hold on to your hats, John. Listeners and viewers, dear viewers and listeners, as John Turner said, you ain't seen nothing yet in the series. Is that in this book? Is that fair to say?

John Turner 1:49:16 I think we just accelerate from here over the last three years of Joseph's life. We have a lot to talk about. There is a lot to talk about in terms of Joseph's polygamy. There's a lot of other things going on too, in terms of ritual and politics. But I think our first subject next time is the beginnings of plural marriage.

John Dehlin 1:49:42 And can I say, is it fair to say that punches will not be pulled?

John Turner 1:49:48 Yes, there will be no punches pulled.

John Dehlin 1:49:51 All right, everyone, the book is Joseph the Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by John G. Turner. It is a great Christmas gift, either in paper form or in audiobook. Please buy it, make it an international bestseller. I get no compensation for saying that. I just think it's a great book. I think more comprehensive and readable than Fawn Brody's no Man Knows My History. And I love that book. I also love Dan Vogel's work. So, Dan Vogel, we love you, but buy this book. Buy it for friends and family. Read it. And thanks for joining us. Please subscribe on YouTube and on Spotify. Please like this episode. We want to get to 300,000 subscribers on YouTube, so please subscribe if you don't mind. And thanks everyone who donates to Mormon Stories and the Open Stories Foundation. We couldn't do this without you. Also thanks to everyone who donated directly to the Joseph Smith Podcast Project. We are grateful that we're able to pay John Turner for some of his time. We hope that he makes more from this podcast than he makes from the book. But we hope that he also makes a boatload of money from the book. But mostly we just hope you all learn more about this fascinating leader and their people. So thanks for supporting us. If you want to donate to the series to see it finished and to try and entice John Turner to come on future episodes, you can go to donorbox.org Joseph Smith and become a donor to this series. It's a great donation for giving month for End of year Christmas giving. Please consider supporting all the worthy causes but also supporting Mormon Stories Podcast and the Joseph Smith Podcast. This is probably our last recording, at least before Christmas. Happy holidays to everyone. Happy holidays to you John Turner. Merry Christmas.

John Turner 1:52:03 Merry Christmas. John de Lynn Merry Christmas and Happy holidays to everyone. Thanks so much for for listening. Thanks for supporting. Love it when people comment. Love it when people email. Most of all, I love it when people engage with with history. And so it's been a blast for me to do that with you this year and I am looking forward to more.

John Dehlin 1:52:31 Yeah, and who knows, maybe we will record next week. I'm not sure. But anyway, be good to each other, be kind to each other, be peacemakers, be bridge builders and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of the Joseph Smith Podcast and Mormon Stories Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.