Joseph Smith’s Final Days

Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin 0:00 Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. This is the Joseph Smith Podcast and It is part 4040 in our Joseph Smith podcast series with Dr. John Turner about his amazing book, Joseph the Rise and Fall of an American Prophet. And we are on the final full chapter, which is chapter 31, called Bleeding Hearts 1844. And John Turner, I'm feeling a little bit nostalgic and sad that this journey of ours may be coming to an end soon, other than the one final episode that we're going to do as kind of a, a closing episode on this series. And then at some point we'll do the Brigham Young series. But I'm feeling a little bit nostalgic and sad.

John Turner 0:53 I'm, I'm right there with you as far as, as far as my emotions go, you know, and it's a. When you write a biography of someone, it always ends with your subject's death. And you live and you die with that person many times over. So you write a draft, you get to the end. It's sad. You, you revise so on and so forth. And so I've sort of lived and died with Joseph Smith a few times, and now I will have lived and died with him. And all of you who are listening, it has been a 40 episode flood of information and commentary about Joseph Smith, and I am also feeling it.

John Dehlin 1:45 And today's episode, we're going to be talking about the murder. We're going to be talking about the Nauvoo Expositor and the murder of Joseph Smith by mob and kind of his interactions with Governor Ford of Illinois and the Lobb brothers and the Foster brothers and Chauncey Higbee and Emma. You know, it's definitely a dramatic end. And speaking of drama, last Friday we found out that the Mormon Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, is suing me and Mormon Stories podcast claiming trademark and copyright infringement. And you made the joke, you made some joke about Joseph Smith enduring legal challenges too. And then I responded saying, this is not the chapter to be comparing my situation to Joseph Smith.

John Turner 2:44 No, I mean, I'll just reassure you that you haven't been sued as often as Joseph Smith and it will end better for you. I don't know how well, but it will end better.

John Dehlin 2:59 Oh, that's funny. Okay, well, really quickly, for those who are joining for the first time, this series is best consumed in sequence. You, you can find it on the the Joseph Smith Podcast playlist on Mormon Stories podcast. You can find it as its own podcast on Spotify and Apple Podcasts as well. It's also integrated into the Mormon Stories podcast feed, but consider watching it from start to finish. We want to thank our donors who have helped make this possible. We're still a few thousand dollars short to pay for the Joseph Smith podcast series, so if any of you can go to donorbox.org Joseph Smith and send us some final donations that would help us make sure we can pay John Turner all the way through and pay for our own production costs as well. We ended up doing more. I guess in theory we were only supposed to do 30ish episodes, but so many of these chapters had so much good content that we split several, several chapters up into two episodes which, which put us now at 40 instead of 30 or 31. So that's why we went over. We hope you have valued the extra content, but if you can show your appreciation, if you're in a position to do so, Please go to donorbox.org Joseph Smith to make final contributions to the podcast. Also, if you want to financially support a 10 episode series on Brigham Young, you can also make donations to that because we do want to pay John Turner for that as well. And thanks to everyone who's already donated both the Mormon Stories podcast and to this podcast that make it all possible. Okay, John Turner, anything you want to say before I ask you a couple questions in advance of covering the chapter?

John Turner 4:48 You just go for it.

Revisiting the Dissident Brothers and Nauvoo Politics

John Dehlin 4:50 Okay. So we kind of, in my view, we were a little bit rushed last chapter and we really didn't get to cover the final parts of the chapter that I wanted to cover. And I think it's a good segue because it's all about sort of the events that are precursors to the Nauvoo Expositor. But, you know, so William and Wilson Law are the brothers. Obviously, William Law is in the First Presidency. Tell me if I'm wrong about this. We've got the Foster brothers, we've got Francis Higby, we've got Cowells, and they, they all purchase a press. One of the things I was going to ask is, you know, they could have it. They knew about Joseph's polygamy, or at least we know William Law did several months prior. And I'm going to guess that Cows and Higby and Foster didn't all learn. The Foster brothers, they didn't all learn about polygamy in like spring of 1844. They had months where many of them were aware of the allegations, if not the existence of polygamy. And so, you know, when I think about like, you know, Michelle Stone and others who are Joseph Smith polygamy deniers that want to just say all these people were evil and the Navajo Expositor was fake, fake news, and they want to discredit the Law brothers and the Foster brothers, et cetera. One of the possible things they bring up is that they were financial interests. That basically some of those people had strong financial interests in the city of Nauvoo and maybe had made investments. Maybe they were trying to maximize their profit. Maybe they were mad at Joseph for the misuse of funds or compromising their investments because, and this is all just a theory in my mind not to need to address the anti Joseph polygamy people, but I do want to try and figure out why it took these dissenters so long to speak out against Joseph Smith and if their delay in speaking out was in any way a tide to. To their financial motivations or interests and. Or if they're speaking out was tied to their financial interest. Do you have any thoughts on those financial motives of the men who end up becoming the ones who back the Naboo Expositor?

John Turner 7:31 So that's a great question. So all of these cases would be individual. But I think an important starting point is a reminder that it's only in mid April of 1844 that a church council cuts off the laws. So both William and Wilson Law, as well as Jane Law and Robert Foster. So some of these individuals had been out of the church or excommunicated for a couple of years, or almost a couple of years. That was the case for Chauncey Higbee. But most of these men, they were not eager for a definitive break with Joseph Smith, even after weeks or months of alienation and conflict and strain, I think. And so the dissenters don't begin meeting as their own church and don't purchase a printing press until after that council exclus excommunicates those who are still in the church. So I think that's a really important sort of marker in the story. They were not going to take a public stand against Joseph until that took place. So financial motivations aside, it was really the catalyst was that wave of excommunications. So some of these individuals, namely the one foster brother who owned the Mammoth Hotel, the Law brothers, to some extent, they definitely had a financial interest in their Nauvoo activities. Now I would argue that on the face of it, their firm move against Joseph Smith is against their own financial interests. I'd have to take more time and try to spell all of that out and tease out those implications. But essentially, when things blow up in Nauvoo, first of all, most of these people leave. And secondarily, if Mormon Nauvoo collapses the way Mormon Kirtland did, that is, you know, go visit Nauvoo today, it's not

John Dehlin 10:11 going to drive up property values.

John Turner 10:13 So the collapse of Mormon settlement is intensely deflationary for the Nauvoo economy.

John Dehlin 10:24 Well, okay. And so that. The flip side of that question is, what took them so long if they knew about polygamy and Joseph's, you know, and. And another thing to add in your argument is even in the Nava Expositor, we'll get to that. They basically say they still believe in the Restoration. They just think Joseph is a fallen prophet. So they do write that they're still believers almost to the end. So that's another argument in favor of why their loyalty lasted so long, I guess. But do you wonder why they were willing to abide the polygamy problems for so many months, especially the laws, to communicate disgust? They could have been disgusted in the fall of. Of 1843. Right. Why wait a year or six months or nine months?

John Turner 11:24 Well, I think the simplest answer is that in a large number of cases, it was very hard for men to definitively break with Joseph Smith. There is a pretty deep emotional, psychological bond between a leader and followers. And if you think back to the aftermath of Kirtland, I mean, Oliver Cowdery is estranged from Joseph and a critic of Joseph increasingly for quite a long time. And the definitive break comes when Joseph decides to take a firm stance against dissenters. And so this is not the first time that men who are sort of on the outs with Joseph seek reconciliation and prefer the idea of eventual reconciliation rather than a definitive split. So in the case of William Law, it does seem that he. He is well aware of at least some of Joseph's polygamy. By October of 1843, he has knowledge of an alleged liaison between Joseph and Maria Lawrence. And it seems that nevertheless, he and his wife remain active in the quorum of the Anointed for a couple of months. And then there's either additional conversation with Joseph or he gets more knowledge and they step away from that activity. There are then intense. There's just intense open, but private conflict between the laws and Joseph by January of 1844. But William Law does not take a public stand against Joseph until after his excommunication in April of that year. So I think people could be disgusted with elements of Joseph's leadership and hope that Joseph would cease what was objectionable and remain the prophet that these men had once admired.

John Dehlin 14:00 Yeah.

John Dehlin 15:04 The one thing that I, that I felt ever since I learned about the Josiah Stoll treasure digging incident in Pennsylvania was that if Joseph had or realized that he had one special power, it was the ability to recruit people to a scheme. Let's just call it a scheme or a project, have it go completely wrong. But still after it goes completely wrong, they still believe he has special powers and special abilities. And that starts with someone like Josiah Stoll, where they didn't find the treasure, but Josiah Stowell testifies later. Well, we didn't find the treasure, but Joseph still has power. And you know, that extends all the way through till 1844. Just, it's clear that people remain loyal to Joseph and remain believing in his powers. And that's John Whitmer. You know, that's Sidney Rigdon, that's Oliver Cowdery. So, so, so, and so, so many others, including in many ways, the Nauvoo Expositor. Guys, let me just really quickly, we kind of rushed over this, but because Higby becomes important, I, I, I want to remind people if we didn't touch on it, that, that in last chapter, Higby files a lawsuit against Joseph Smith, if I'm right, John Turner, for falsely accusing Higby of having a venereal disease. In other words, Joseph didn't like that Higby was accusing Joseph of polygamy, which Joseph was practicing. And so Joseph Smith smeared Higby by telling everyone he was unchaste and that he had a venereal disease and that led to legal trouble at the end of last chapter. Is that all right, John Turner?

John Turner 16:55 That is all correct.

John Dehlin 16:56 Okay.

John Turner 16:57 So, you know, at first, Joseph had made these comments about Higbee before the city council. He also, I believe, makes some public comments from the stand. And so Higby doesn't want to just take it. And so he files a complaint against Higby for slandering him. Asking for $5,000 is probably quite a lot, no matter what. Joseph, Joseph, you know, he. He doesn't back down. He. In to avoid being arrested in that case, he obtains a writ of habeas corpus from Nauvoo's city court in which Joseph and others, I mean, they just provide some pretty graphic testimony about Higby's alleged sexual escapades. And, you know, of course, Nauvoo City court sets Joseph free, but Higbee, and this is backdrop for today's material. I mean, unlike, I would say, William Law and Robert Foster and certain other individuals, I mean, he. Higby is on the war path against Joseph and is seeking ways to do him damage.

John Dehlin 18:44 Yeah. And did Joseph also claim that Higby molested a woman or groped. Groped a woman?

John Turner 18:58 Well, he. I don't know about molestation, so I know that Joseph accuses. He. He alleges that Higby contracted syphilis after a liaison with, I think, a prostitute and had also seduced women. Joseph also, this is in the context of seeking to be set free from this slander suit. Joseph, rather gratuitously, in my opinion, testified that he had seen Robert Foster feel of a woman's bosom in a stage and feel of her backsides. Now, I don't know what. Whether this was. I don't recall whether part of that was he was doing this against the woman's will. I don't especially think so, but he's. He's accusing his opponents of all sorts of sexual misconduct and lewd behavior.

John Dehlin 20:15 And as someone who, I mean, my. My approach, belief, an opinion is that with this lawsuit the church is now suing me for, I believe I'm being defamed with false information. And so, as I've done throughout this whole series, one of the things I like to try to do is to tie modern church behavior with behavior of its founder. Because if it's true, I mean, if Higbee was groping women and if he had a venereal disease, then I guess that's fair to smear and slander. Him that way or smear him that way. But if it was false and it was just done because Joseph Smith was mad that in fact Higbee was telling the truth, then we can see another example of where Joseph Smith lies about and smears an honest critic. And so I guess I'm just trying to get an assessment for whether that's what's going on here. Again, like with Nancy Rigdon, you know, like with Martha Brotherton and so many other people who told the truth about Joseph Smith and instead received smears in return.

John Turner 21:31 Yeah, so that's a great. That's a great question. And I have to say, in this case, I don't know, because for me, what. What was significant wasn't so much whether Joseph was making accurate or inaccurate criticisms of Higbee and Foster. I understand why that could be important, especially in the context of your question. What's significant to me is the extent to which Joseph, again and again during these months, just throws caution to the wind and goes scorched earth on his critics. Now, I. I do think in some instances, I'm. I'm pretty confident that, you know, some of these smears were just flat out lies. I really would be surprised if Nancy Rigdon or even Sarah Pratt, you know, just. If everybody was sort of getting in bed with John C. Bennett. I know maybe some women did, but I don't think all of Joseph's critics did. But you also have to. You have to think about the context. I mean, Joseph is seriously under duress by the spring of 1844, and he just keeps pushing back harder and harder against these men and turning them from internal critics into dangerously public antagonists.

John Dehlin 23:18 Yeah. Okay, really quickly, last chapter, we talked about Joseph running for president. You conclude that the chapter by saying that Joseph Smith predicts that Tyler will not be president and that Joseph might become president someday. That's what I wrote down. Is that how that sort of chapter on Joseph's presidency concludes? I don't remember reading anything about Joseph's candidacy in chapter 31. And so is there anything else we need to say about that? Because I'm not sure we tied that up last episode.

The 1844 Nauvoo Convention and Political Ambitions

John Turner 23:58 Yeah, we didn't quite. So there's a convention in Nauvoo in mid May of 1844, and delegates, I wouldn't exactly say completely from far and wide come, but some delegates come and there's. They nominate Joseph for president, Sidney Rigdon for vice president, and it's a really fun night. Joseph, you know, for everything, he was still capable of setting his concerns aside. And having, having a good time. And there are music and speeches and they set barrels of tar on fire. They, you know, men who are present, they hoist Joseph on their shoulders and carry him around. And the band plays. A huge crowd follows Joseph around Nauvoo. The plan was for Mormon elders to organize conventions in states across the country and then have a national convention in Baltimore at some point in the summer. And so the apostles, people like Brigham Young, Wilford Woodruff, Heber C. Kimball, they fan out after this Nauvoo convention. And then everything is interrupted by Joseph's death. Then what you referred to is a conversation between Joseph and two visitors in May of 1844. Couple people by this point. People making tours of the western United States would sometimes stop in Nauvoo as they traveled up or down the Mississippi river, sometimes wanting to see Joseph, meet the Mormon prophet, see the under construction Nauvoo temple. And so two men to come to visit him. Charles Francis Adams, the scion of the Adams family.

John Dehlin 26:11 This is like a grandson of John Adams, son of John Quincy.

John Turner 26:15 Exactly. Grandson and son of those two presidents and Josiah Quincy iv, whose father was president of Harvard and a former congressman. So this is like, this is the upper crust Boston Brahmins. And you know, they, they just find Joseph Smith fascinating. They write about it years later. You know, Joseph shows them his mummies and the papyri. He shows them the under construction temple. And you know, there's some friendly banter between Joseph and his visitors. They ask him to predict a victor in the coming presidential election. Joseph does not say, you know, I'm going to win. What he says is the obvious. I will prophesy that John Tyler will not be the next president. Tyler was the sitting president and his party wasn't going to nominate him again. And then what he says is that as the Mormons grow in number, he might one day hold the balance of power between parties, which, which would enable his election. So maybe down the road, if there's, I mean, let's just be crazy, if there's half a million Mormons instead of, I don't know, 15, 15, 20,000, that might settle things in his favor. And one of the men tell Joseph that he already has too much power to be safely trusted to one man. And Joseph's response is this in your hands or that of any other person. Such power would no doubt be dangerous. I am the only man in the world whom it would be safe to trust with it. Remember, I am a prophet. Now. When I read that, I think it's a bit of a quip, you know, that Joseph, Joseph is having fun with these people and he knows that this is a bit ridiculous. And, you know, they. One of them writes later that he just found it impossible to really take the measure of Joseph Smith. He was something that just couldn't really be explained. He was a phenomenon.

John Dehlin 28:48 Yeah, well, so we won't, we won't flag that as a false prophecy, but it is a great segue into this, this chapter in this final concluding chapter, because I, I wrote down Waco, you know, David Koresh vibes. Like, on the one hand, Joseph is saying he can be entrusted with all this power. On the other hand, we are about to see how his almost complete absolute power, Nauvoo, almost leads to a massacre, in my opinion. So let's start with you start with the painting. Is it called Death in a Pale Horse? Is that the name of the painting?

John Turner 29:31 It's Death on the Pale Horse.

John Dehlin 29:32 Death on the Pale Horse. Okay.

John Turner 29:35 It's a painting by Benjamin west and an exhibitor. West painted a few versions of this biblical scene, and an exhibitor brought a copy of one of them to Nauvoo and it was displayed in the second floor of Joseph's red brick store. The scene is from the book of Revelation with four horsemen poised to unleash destruction on the earth. And there's Death is a figure sitting on a pale horse, and hell followed with him. And listeners could, could Google Benjamin West's Death on a On the Pale Horse. And whichever version they found, you'd see these apocalyptic figures just slaughtering the innocents, including women and children. And this is Joseph sees this in the middle of June of 1844. And it's at a time when Mormon settlers in outlying areas beyond Nauvoo, they are under a lot of pressure from mobs. And for me, it captures a gloomy mood and the possibility of like. Like you just alluded to the possibility of slaughter. And I think, I think this is very much on Joseph's mind that there's a possibility that mobs will descend on Nauvoo. They could kill him. They could also kill large numbers of innocents.

John Dehlin 31:25 Yeah.

Joseph Smith Under Legal Pressure and Persecution

John Dehlin 32:14 So, Joseph, you write that Joseph is annoyed that he's constantly feeling scared to death, or that he despises. That he constantly feels afraid for his life, afraid for his people. You mentioned that Porter Rockwell, the, you know, some would say the potential avenging angel, dark assassin kind of character. You. You invoke him and then you start with the summons for Joseph's arrests. So what's going on now? What, what month are we again? And why is Joseph in trouble? Legal trouble yet again.

John Turner 32:52 So this is in toward the end of May of 1844, and a grand jury in Carthage indicts Joseph on a couple of different charges. One of them is an indictment of. For adultery and fornication. It's actually a. There are a number of counts in this indictment. One of them pertains to Maria Lawrence, the now 20 year old Ward of Joseph's, who was a member of the Smith household. Other counts in this indictment specified similar acts with certain women to the jurors unknown. So unfortunately, the surviving records from this case don't detail the names of other women. Joseph's also accused of perjury in relation to another case. So the indictments were based at least in part on testimony or the adultery and fornication indictment was based at least in part on testimony from William and Wilson Law, who at least William had been present the previous October when Joseph apparently had spent the night with Maria Lawrence.

John Dehlin 34:34 Yeah, and why Maria Lawrence? I mean, There are over 30 polygamous wives to choose from. Why is it Maria Lawrence that was particularly problematic at this time? I was curious about that.

John Turner 34:51 Well, I think the simple answer is that William Law was maybe not. I mean, I don't think he saw the transaction, but he is. So Joseph pays a visit to the farm of John Benbow and William Law is also there. And William Law at the very least comes away with the impression that Joseph has spent the night with or slept with Maria Lawrence. And so as far as I know, that's, that's, that is the reason for the specificity in the case.

John Dehlin 35:36 She was one of the. She was one of the what? Daughters entrusted to Joseph's care, living with him, Is that right? I mean, Some would say one of the most problematic of the plural marriages, along with. Yeah, know, obviously, the Kimball. The Kimball daughter. Right.

John Turner 35:58 Correct.

John Dehlin 35:59 Yeah.

John Turner 35:59 So. Yeah. And. And, you know, just to say one thing about Helen Mar.

John Dehlin 36:05 Helen Mar. Kimmel.

Speaker C 36:06 Sorry.

John Turner 36:06 Right. Just to say one thing about the indictment. It's not likely that Joseph would have been convicted of anything in this case. I think we sometimes have to. When we're looking at Joseph's legal troubles, we have to distinguish between morally questionable behavior and behavior that would run afoul of the law. So Illinois had a statute that criminalized adultery and fornication. And I forget the specific language, but it was intended for open and brazen cases in which, say, if Joseph had openly begun living with Maria Lawrence for a period of time, that would have made a successful prosecution far more likely. The. These laws were not intended to generally criminalize somebody having sex with somebody else. I know that's a little bit of a digression, but sometimes I think people might wonder, you know, well, what kind of legal jeopardy was Joseph really in? I think in this case, he would not have been convicted of fornication. However, if you are the mayor of a town and the president of a church, it's definitely a problem to be hauled into court to face a charge like this. So it's a good example of the way that Joseph's enemies were able to kind of do serious damage to him after that definitive break.

John Dehlin 38:19 Yeah. Okay.

John Turner 38:22 So.

John Dehlin 38:25 So the legal complaint gets filed with Hancock County. The charges are adultery and fornication. And, yeah, Joseph's response, what, is to preach a sermon. He does that a few times in this chapter.

John Turner 38:46 So his response is actually twofold. So, number one, he sort of makes fun of the charge. He says, you know, as for spiritual wifeism, which is really the. That's really what's at issue here. It's not whether or not Joseph has slept with somebody, why a man dares not speak or wink for fear of being accused of this. And then he says, I never had any fuss with these men until that female relief society brought out the paper against adulterers and adulteresses. That is a reference to the voice of innocence that under Emma Smith's leadership, the Relief Society had approved in the late winter of 1844. So Joseph's clearly frustrated that these charges are being made against him. And I think the real. The real danger is the damage to his reputation rather than the legal jeopardy in this case. But then, secondly, you know, Joseph's customary move during these months is to shelter himself behind Nauvoo's own court and avoid facing charges elsewhere in this case. And I think it's perhaps because so much of his reputation was at stake. He actually rode to Carthage and essentially then sort of fate, you know, was sort of signaled that he would face the legal music. And the case was then set for the circuit court's October term. So it's actually an instance in which Joseph does submit to the law. And my hunch, I don't have proof for this is this was, you know, reputationally, this was in Joseph's best interest.

John Dehlin 41:16 Yeah.

John Turner 41:17 I think he also knew he'd win the case.

John Dehlin 41:20 Right. I just did not know I did. It wasn't until today that I realized that Joseph was in legal trouble around polygamy before the Nauvoo Expository event even happened. So charges related to Joseph Smith's polygamy were already pending before the Navajo Expositor even published its first episode. I did not know that until today. It's just yet another example of how much this book is teaching me after studying this stuff for 30 or 40 years.

John Turner 41:56 Thanks, John Delenn.

John Dehlin 41:57 Yeah.

John Turner 41:58 Yeah. So in this case, William Law, he's finally out of the church in mid April, 1844, and he's providing testimony to this effect a month later. And it's a. It's a big. As I said, it's a big reputational problem for the prophet.

John Dehlin 42:17 Yeah. And to that point, he also expresses regret that. That the Relief Society ever, you know, sort of. We spoke in previous chapters about the activity in the Relief Society which he founded. And if I remember correctly, he founded the Relief Society with the primary motivation of squelching rumors of polygamy. And yet by the end, he's expressing frustration that it's the Relief Society. And I think you write in your book, you might even think it was primarily Emma who in the end, start raising enough noise about polygamy that he kind of blames Relief Society and Emma for this new round of legal trouble that he's in. Did I get that right or not?

John Turner 43:14 No, that's correct. And Emma, you know, when the Relief Society meets in February and March of 1844 and endorses this voice of innocence, this is Emma's. It's not the first time, but it's the latest salvo in her intention to use the Society to expose and stamp out iniquity in the church. And so I think Joseph, in a sense, is upset that his iniquity, if you will, with Maria Lawrence, has been made a public matter. Now, in Joseph's mind, I think he certainly would have felt like this is an unfair charge, that he's, he's certainly not engaging in adultery. She's not married, first of all, which could be one way in which that might be understood. And he certainly doesn't understand his plural marriages as fornication. But he certainly also doesn't want to publicly defend himself. So I think if the case had gone to court, it could have been, it could have been dangerous, depending on the testimony against him. I think Joseph would simply have, he could have technically defended himself against the charge rather easily because he was not openly living with Maria Lawrence.

John Dehlin 44:54 Yeah. And we don't know if Emma was happy or sad that she and the Relief Society were kind of getting blamed for all this. But let's talk about his Sunday sermon and his comment about being a fish. He would be a fish out of water. I think that was funny.

John Turner 45:11 Yeah. He says I should be like a fish out of water if I were out of persecution. And he says, and he, this is Joseph. I mean, he's definitely concerned about the forces that are conspiring against him, but he does have this firm belief that he's going to prevail. He says I always come out on top in the end.

Speaker C 45:34 And

John Turner 45:36 I really think until the day, day or two before his murder, that's, that's his appraisal of the situation. I'm, I'm going to prevail against my enemies.

John Dehlin 45:49 And that's definitely a false prophecy, unless it's the long view, which is the how rich and powerful and big the Mormon Church is today. But certainly he didn't in this case we know for sure he didn't come out on top.

John Turner 46:03 No, he did not.

John Dehlin 46:05 Over his enemies. All right, so should we jump to the big one of the big topics for today other than the Carthage and the martyrdom? It's the Nauvoo Expositor. So what background do you want to tell us? Is there anything we should know in terms of background?

The Nauvoo Expositor and Its Publishers

John Turner 46:24 So the first thing to know is the publishers of the Nauvoo Expositor include the three sets of brothers that we've been talking about. Last episode in this, the Law Brothers, the Higby Brothers, the Foster Brothers, there's some other men involved, and the Nauvoo Expositor, for people who aren't familiar, it publishes one issue on June of 1844 and it is a full throated broadside against Joseph Smith. The publishers profess belief in the original religion of the Latter Day Saints as once taught by Joseph Smith. But they accused Joseph of having betrayed his early principles through what they term a series of abominations and whoredoms. And, yeah, they. They hold nothing back. You know, they accuse Joseph. And. And so I'll just say. Let me also back up and say they make a number of separate critiques of Joseph. One of those is polygamy. And so is serious criticism on that front that Joseph and his allies are luring pious women into this pernicious practice, pressuring them to become the plural wives of Joseph and other top leaders, and, you know, threatening them with damnation if they reject this. The newspaper also accuses Joseph of the accumulation and abuse of political power. They also accuse him of skirting justice. We've talked a lot about Joseph's use of Nauvoo's claimed authority to shield himself from prosecution outside of the city's jurisdiction. And I would also say, and this is serious business, they. They state that they don't like vigilantism, but that if it's necessary to make a show of force to execute legal process, it will create no sympathy in that case, to cry out, we are mobbed. In other words, it might take

Speaker D 49:26 a

John Turner 49:27 citizen posse to apprehend and prosecute Joseph for his crimes. So that's a pretty serious threat that, you know, we don't like vigilantism, but we might. It might be necessary in this case.

John Dehlin 49:46 Yeah, that's not sounding good. So they purchase the printing press, they publish one edition of the Nauvoo Expositor, and they do it, as I mentioned previously, they do it as believers in the LDS restoration still. And they just assume the position that Joseph was a fallen prophet but still believing that he previously was a prophet.

John Turner 50:22 Correct? That's absolutely right.

John Dehlin 50:24 Yeah. And I've mentioned this before, but when you talk about luring women, especially from overseas, and then enticing them to come to Nauvoo and then propositioning them for marriage and polygamy, which. Which involves sex. You know, in modern. This is probably presentism, but in modern terms, that sounds a lot like sex trafficking. And there's the. The fact that they come. I remember reading the Nava Expositor. They often don't speak the language. You know, they're poor. And then they're pressured with damnation if they reject. That's a lot of. That's luring, that's trafficking, that's pressuring. You know, there's threatening, and then there's marriage and sex, potentially. I'm not asking you to call Joseph Smith a sex trafficker, but I'm just reminding Folks to make do their own reading of the Nava Expositor and make their own judgment. But that's what came to my mind from a presentist perspective. And I'll just acknowledge that that's a presentist perspective because I'm sure that term sex trafficking or even the concept maybe didn't exist back then.

John Turner 51:44 Well, so this same charge was leveled against the church and its leaders really, throughout most of the remaining 19th century. So the idea that missionaries would go out into the field, whether that was the US south or whether that was Scandinavia in the early 1850s and especially before, well, even after polygamy was openly acknowledged and defended by the church. You know, the charge was that missionaries would convert women and entice them to Utah and then sort of spring polygamy on them. Now, in this original context, I don't think it's particularly applicable to Joseph Smith himself, but there are some instances in which other church leaders met women in England and then certainly persuaded their families to come to Nauvoo, or perhaps in some cases, persuaded the women themselves to come to Nauvoo and then surprise them with proposals of plural marriage. That's certainly part of the context of the Martha Brotherton case. William Clayton, his initial interest in polygamy stems from him, his interest in a woman for whom he had developed feelings in England. And so I think that's, you know, that's sort of the, that's at least sort of the backdrop of those accusations.

John Dehlin 53:39 Yeah. Okay. And so, yeah, I guess, I guess asking you to do an analysis of the charges real quick, John Turner, do you feel like these men were just non credible, disgruntled apostates, or is your, your view in terms of objective balls and strikes? Do you feel like they had credible concerns with Joseph in terms of either lawlessness or immorality or doctrinal apostasy and that their accusations were credible? In other words, is the Navajo Expositor a tissue of lies?

John Turner 54:27 Okay, so, well, the other, since you mentioned it, I'd actually forgotten to include,

John Dehlin 54:33 I should have said disgruntled lies in

John Turner 54:35 those lists of accusations against Joseph was teaching false doctrine, namely the existence of multiple gods. So that was, you know, that was also presented as a theological deviation from sort of original Mormonism. So I would say this is, for me, this isn't. This is a different category than John C. Bennett's expose in that while Bennett's expose contains some accurate information, it also includes a great deal of hyperbole and fancy. You know, the Nauvoo Expositor, it's Not long. It doesn't take too long to look at it all. It includes some affidavits, statements from individuals who I think had credible information about Joseph's teachings on plural marriage that had been shared with them the previous summer. So there's definitely, you know, some solid information like that. I think also some of the charges are fair. I mean, Joseph was using writs of habeas corpus to shield himself from legal threats. I mean, that, you know, that that was sort of his basic MO So he is putting himself, I would say, not above the law, but beyond the law would be maybe a good way of putting it. And in terms of some of those theological charges, well, Joseph, they're probably casting this in the most negative possible term, but Joseph's teachings had evolved over the prior 10 years, no doubt about it. In terms of polygamy, I'd have to reread those passages in the Expositor. I mean, they might well cast things in more lurid terms, particularly with respect to Joseph, you know, perhaps more lurid than the historical record would merit. But I'm not sure. I mean, at the very least, the basic charge that Joseph was practicing and encouraging others to practice polygamy, well, that. That was true.

John Dehlin 57:23 Yeah. Yeah. So overall, not a tissue of lies, but a sincere effort to chronicle legal and doctrinal concerns with Joseph's behavior and teachings.

John Turner 57:37 I think that's. I think that's fair.

John Dehlin 57:39 Yeah. So as. As mayor, as prophet mayor, you know, head of the legion, Chief judge, the Nauvoo City Council decides to evaluate what to do with the Nauvoo Expositor. Tell us what happens.

Destruction of the Expositor Press

John Turner 57:59 So I think it's important to remember that last, you know, when I. When I talked about what the Expositor recommended, there was. There was a threat that it might be necessary for an element of vigilantism to be employed to bring Joseph to justice. So there's that specter of mobs, and that is what Joseph fingers as the problem with this newspaper. Now, there's also a lot of commentary about the people involved, but I think what really matters is Joseph argues that the Expositor will foment mobs. He says at a city council meeting, we will be in our graves if the city does not put down everything, which tends to mob bokracy. So, you know, how. How. How should the city respond? So there's the suggestion that you could fine or imprison individuals who publish false statements against the good order of the city. But Joseph wants a vigorous, more vigorous response, and he and his supporters bring up the Fact that the Nauvoo charter authorizes the city council to declare what shall be a nuisance and to remove the same. And the original meaning of that clause was to deal with sort of public health problems. Like if there's a carcass in the city, you take action to get rid of it. Joseph argues that the newspaper is a greater nuisance than a dead carcass. So Hyrum Smith then proposes that men should smash the press all to pieces and scatter its type, like, just to destroy it. And the members of the city council, they have a debate, you know, what about freedom of the press? Well, you know, those who are. Want the most vigorous response. They argue that doesn't include the liberty to publish libels. But in the end, Joseph's supporters identified the newspaper as a threat to the city and its residents, and they pass a resolution calling for its destruction. And Joseph, as mayor, orders the city marshal to essentially form a posse and get to it. And so they break into the Nauvoo Expositor office with sledgehammers. They carry the press and the type into the street. They pile paper and furniture on top of it, and they burn it. And, you know, the nuisance. The nuisance is removed.

John Dehlin 1:01:23 And, yeah, sledgehammers just felt really violent. I hadn't realized that, but I guess, what else do you break up a printing press with but then burning. You know, they burnt the entire building, not just the press, but the building, Is that right?

John Turner 1:01:40 Not the building, just the press.

John Dehlin 1:01:42 Okay, Just the press. I thought I read that Joseph told them to burn the building as well.

John Turner 1:01:50 So there is. Well, maybe I should probably double check, but I do think Joseph authorized the city marshal to demolish the house and make arrests in the event of resistance. I don't think the office building itself is. Is destroyed, but you're right. So this is. On some level, this is a violent public act. And this posse then. And this is very openly done with Joseph's support. The members of the posse, they stand in front of Joseph's house. Afterwards, he addresses them, assures them they've done a good deed. And it's. This is a. This is a brazen, I would say brazen response.

John Dehlin 1:02:45 Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:03:50 Don't they also smear? You know, going back to this idea of smearing honest critics, I don't mean to harp on it, but it's in this chapter. Isn't the. Aren't the laws specifically and maybe others singled out as with. With smears?

John Turner 1:04:11 Yes. So Joseph, this is at the city. At one of a city council meeting the day after the newspapers first and only issue. He says that if he had kept a whore from Canada here, he would have been as good a man as William and Wilson Law. Joseph in other contexts has accused William Law of committing adultery. Hyrum Smith adds that another one of his antagonists, a man named Joseph Jackson, he had been planning to kidnap an elope with Hiram's daughter Lavina. All sorts of. Yeah, there's. There's all sorts of statements about how wicked these men are.

John Dehlin 1:05:00 And do we have any reason to believe that the Law brothers were in fact sleeping around like we know Joseph Smith was?

John Turner 1:05:09 So I don't have. I don't have evidence to corroborate that.

John Dehlin 1:05:15 So the likely scenario is that again, Joseph smears his critics and paints them as engaging in the behavior that Joseph is actually behaving in and covering up. But then he accuses his critics, his honest critics, of that behavior falsely. Is that how it appears?

John Turner 1:05:41 So I think that's probably accurate now. For me, it just wasn't. It's not really important whether or not William and Wilson Law ever engaged in whoredoms. Extra. Extramarital sex or whoredoms for that matter. I think that's unlikely. But yeah, I think Joseph, I just see this as just sort of wild lashing out after this newspaper is published. Joseph is both alarmed and enraged.

John Dehlin 1:06:16 He also accuses them of being counterfeiters, which I thought was interesting. Is there any evidence that they were counterfeiting money?

John Turner 1:06:24 Great question. There's all sorts of discussion about counterfeit rings in Nauvoo during And after Joseph's lifetime, either under his direction or under the direction of Brigham Young or under the direction of their opponents. I. I don't have evidence to corroborate that idea.

John Dehlin 1:06:45 Okay. And, yeah, so. So also, you mentioned that they accused Jackson of what, wanting to elope with Hyrum Smith's daughter Lavina to kidnap and elope. And is there any evidence that Jackson wanted to kidnap any lope with Hyrum Smith's daughter Lavina?

John Turner 1:07:09 I do not have any evidence for that.

John Dehlin 1:07:12 Okay. Yeah, because that's a pretty specific accusation. I mean, I'm wondering if, like, Joseph would have offered Hyrum's daughter. Joseph Smith would have offered Hyrum's daughter to Joseph Jackson, and somehow that was turned on him as being his intent to kidnap and elope with. I guess we'd be speculating.

John Turner 1:07:38 I think that'd be speculation. But let me just. Let me say what's absolutely not speculation. As we know from how this story plays out, this is a grave strategic error by Joseph Smith. I mean, no matter what the Nauvoo Expositor has alleged and no matter sort of arguments about the legality of this action. So, for instance, back in the 1960s, the current president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Dallin Oaks, did some research and writing on the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor and makes a solid argument that ordering the destruction of a printing presser, specifically destroying issues of a newspaper that might not have been illegal in the context of the mid 19th century. There's some detailed argument about it. Nauvoo is certainly not the only municipality in the 19th century to declare a newspaper illegal nuisance and order its destruction. Probably the violent destruction of the printing press itself or the destruction of the printing press itself. That might be a different. A different matter. But I actually think it's best to set the legal argument aside and to think about the strategic misstep, because Joseph's opponents were outraged, but they also immediately sensed opportunity. William Law wrote in his diary that he had not suspected men of being such fools, because the press's destruction handed the dissenters the legal ammunition they needed. Francis Higbee rushed to Carthage and swore a complaint against Joseph and a number of other men for this action. And the charge was rioting. And. And so Joseph, by doing this, immediately places himself in legal jeopardy. And ultimately it's. This is not the only. This is not the only legal issue involved in Joseph's involuntary journey to Carthage jail. But this is really the catalyst.

John Dehlin 1:10:39 Yeah. So, yeah, that's exactly. I was going to ask you, do you think we. We know that Elder Oaks, early in his career, as I understand it, wrote a defense that Joseph, as mayor, actually acted in a legitimate way in his destruction of the Nauvoo printing press, that he was justified in doing it, or at least that it wasn't illegal? And it sounds like you're saying he makes a decent case.

John Turner 1:11:04 Well, I think he makes a decent case, and I think to really get into the nitty gritty, I believe in that essay, I think he raises the possible distinction between destroying copies of a newspaper and destroying property, particularly destroying property by burning it in the street. And I do think it's possible for Joseph to mount a legal defense. Certainly. However, in a way, the legal context is a little bit different, but in a way, it's a little bit like Joseph's, the charge of adultery and fornication, in which Joseph would certainly have prevailed, I think, in a legal sense, in that instance. However, that doesn't mean that the underlying. That Joseph's underlying actions were wise or upright. And I think you could say the same in this case. Well, even if you want to argue that the city council could legally declare the Nauvoo Expositor a public nuisance and destroy issues of that paper, at the very least, this is a serious strategic blunder and something that many residents, probably most residents of Illinois would understand as an effect, a moral offense, if not a legal offense. And as I said, it sets a dangerous sequence of events in motion.

John Dehlin 1:13:04 Yeah. How did the Law brothers and the Foster brothers and what the Higby brothers and others. How did the Nauvoo Expositor crowd feel once their work had been destroyed by sledgehammers and fire? And you do mention that Green was told by Joseph to destroy it all and to demolish the house.

John Turner 1:13:29 Right.

John Dehlin 1:13:30 So anyway, how did the Nauvoo Expositor crowd feel once they saw their work in. Dashed to pieces in the streets of Nauvoo?

John Turner 1:13:40 So definitely there's outrage and there's concern. I think there's also fear. You know, they. They. They fear that they could be prosecuted for libel, and there's also fear that they might be attacked. And so they clear out the Law brothers, the Foster brothers, and a couple of. Couple of other families leave Nauvoo and take refuge in Iowa. But I also think they recognize that Joseph has now exposed himself to legal danger. And so in a way, this is. This is an opportunity, and I think the dissenters recognize that.

John Dehlin 1:14:34 Okay, so then Higbee goes To Carthage. Why is Higby going to Carthage?

John Turner 1:14:43 So he goes to Carthage to complain about. To make a formal legal complaint about the destruction of the printing press. And a justice of the peace, a county justice of the peace in Carthage issues a warrant for the arrest of Joseph and 17 other men on charges of rioting. And a constable goes to Nauvoo and arrests Joseph and the other men. Now, in order for Joseph to be successfully prosecuted for anything, he has to be taken out of Nauvoo in order to have a hearing and ultimately a trial in Carthage or at least somewhere beyond the confines of Nauvoo. And Joseph does whatever he does from 1841, 1842 onward, in the face of arrest, he gets a writ of habeas corpus from Nauvoo's municipal court and gets his case dismissed. Now, at that point, because Joseph has engaged in behavior that is offensive to most other residents of Illinois, Joseph comes under heat from putting himself above the law by using this writ of habeas corpus as a way, as sort of get out of jail free card. And so his enemies are complaining against him in print. There are anti Mormon meetings in places like Carthage and Warsaw, Illinois, and newspapers and resolutions passed by those meetings. They are making grave threats against Joseph and the Mormon people. They resolve to drive them from the county. They say that if Joseph doesn't surrender, there should be a war of extermination waged to the entire destruction of his adherents. And Governor Ford, Governor Thomas Ford of Illinois, he is, on the one hand, sensitive to the possible danger of mob action against the Mormons, but he also wants Joseph to give himself up, to present himself, to face charges, just, you know, to face things head on and fairly.

John Dehlin 1:17:48 Yeah. And so Joseph's got some decisions to make because clearly it's clear that he doesn't trust that he'll be in safe hands if he turns himself in. Correct.

John Turner 1:18:01 Correct. Now, I would say that at the end of May, Joseph we talked about earlier in this episode, when charged with adultery and fornication and perjury, Joseph went to Carthage and, you know, had a. Had a debt date set for a case to be tried later in the fall. So there is a precedent that Joseph can, in theory, you know, go to Carthage, come before a judge and return home. But especially as mob activity begins to increase, Joseph really tries to, you know, draw. Draw a line in the sand between himself and Carthage and repeatedly says that he fears being killed if. If he goes there.

John Dehlin 1:18:56 Yeah, yeah. It's described in your book as a headquarters of mobocracy I think.

John Turner 1:19:03 Correct. And, you know, Governor Ford and some other Illinois politicians and judges, they're telling Joseph, look, if you submit to arrest, you're either gonna, you're gonna be either acquitted, you know, have the case dismissed, or you're going to be bound over to face trial at some later point. If you do that, opposition is going to kind of decrease. It's gonna, it's gonna eliminate this legal excuse, really, for mob action. But Joseph, you know, Joseph just, you know, is. He just resists. He resists that advice.

John Dehlin 1:19:52 Yeah, yeah. And if, if we were to, like, you know, now that we start talking about the mob and vigilantes, I think it wouldn't hurt to summarize all the groups of enemies that Joseph Smith has made over the past 14 years. And Lenny, start and then I want to see if you can finish. But, like, there's all the folks in Kirtland, Ohio that were mad about the bank scandal and everything that unraveled in Kirtland. There's all the Missouri people, especially the government leaders and Boggs and those who feel like an assassination attempt happened. Plus that Joseph got out of jail free, that he wasn't rightly convicted. So there's all the Missouri people, then there's John C. Bennett. There's the, you know, the surrounding neighbors that were mad about just the growth of the. Of the Mormons in Nauvoo, Illinois, who were mad. Similarly, like the citizens of Missouri were worried about the growth of the Mormons there. There were all the political alliances and double dealings that Joseph had with politicians in Illinois. There were people concerned about the Nauvoo charter and habeas corpus and Joseph's power. There were the Masonic Lodge, the Illinois Masonic Lodge, guys that were concerned about the corruption of the Masonic Lodge. Then there were the internal dissenters that were mad about Joseph's polygamy and his hiding of his polygamy and of his teaching of false doctrine and the people that he kicked out and excommunicated for, you know, and all the people he smeared who denied his polygamous advances over the years and then came out clean about his polygamous advances, and then he smeared them and did everything he could to destroy their lives. Now, who am I missing?

Joseph Smith's History of Evading Enemies

John Turner 1:22:08 Well, I mean, I guess if we wanted to go, go way back, we could. We could talk about some of his enemies in southern New York and the treasure digging of the Hale family who were not big fans of his. But yes, Joseph, he has accumulated thousands of fervent followers and he's accumulated you know, hundreds, probably thousands of fierce enemies over the years.

John Dehlin 1:22:43 Yeah. Okay. And so would you, would you say the mob? You know, let's just say the Carthage Grays and the mobs that end up killing Joseph and that are assembling. Of all the groups I mentioned, the most significant contingency would be which, which of those groups I mentioned.

John Turner 1:23:03 So there's a number of sort of, I would say ringleaders of the opposition to Joseph, the dissenters in Nauvoo. There's, you know, there's some suspicion that they may do Joseph physical harm, but I think that's not really their approach. So Levi Williams, who's a colonel in the Hancock County Militia, he's been a pretty fierce opponent of Joseph for quite some time.

John Dehlin 1:23:42 Thomas Sharp, was he part of the kidnapping incident that happened that we talked about previously?

John Turner 1:23:48 Yeah, he was involved in that. And then Joseph had sent a posse to try to arrest him in turn. Thomas Sharp, the Whig newspaper editor, was another very implacable opponent. Walter Bagby was an implacable opponent. And as events proceed In June of 1844, some of these individuals find themselves, you know, actively leading militia companies. And it's not clear at what point they were prepared to move against Joseph had Joseph come to Carthage. But that's the fear, and especially by June 15th. So this is shortly after this complaint and after Joseph's arrested and then freed. In this case, you know, there are messengers who come from a Mormon settlement 30 miles south of Nauvoo. And a mob headed by Levi Williams goes there and tells the Mormon settlers that they have to give up their arms until Joseph and other high ranking church leaders submit to arrest. And so there are active threats out there, and especially as those increase, Joseph, I mean, he's really, he's, he's in a bind. He doesn't feel it's safe to go to Carthage. And his resistance to submitting to arrest just inflames mob activity. And, and if I may just move ahead, please, to another provocative step. So there's all these legal back and forths and there's this growing threat of mob violence. And on June 18, Joseph appears before the Nauvoo Legion and, and proclaims that the city is under martial law. And he orders the militia and the police and anyone else to make sure that no persons or property pass in or out of the city without permission. And he warns the mob is out there ready to wage a war of extermination against us. And he's telling the people to be prepared to fight and die if they have to. And if they do, they will secure a glorious resurrection. And during this address, Joseph, he unsheathes his sword. He holds it up to, you know, holds it up to the sky. It's quite, you know, it's a dramatic moment. And I think you see Joseph, he's trying to find some way of, you know, protecting himself and his people from this growing threat of mob action. And yet every step he takes is another provocation that increases the threat against him. And so pretty soon he is as sort of the walls close in and he's under more and more pressure from. The Illinois governor, Thomas Ford. Joseph really only has a few options. The options are go to Carthage and submit to these charges, which you can then contest. Get your people to fight against any mob or posse that comes against Nauvoo, or flee, and, you know, start over, start over somewhere else. The concern in that case is that if Joseph flees, that won't necessarily, you know, save his people from mob action.

John Dehlin 1:28:26 Yeah. And the point that I felt was particularly provocative was when the Mormon settlers are told to give up their arms, their weapons, their guns and their cannons and whatever Joseph says to keep them until they die. And immediately I wrote Waco Vibes, you know, David Koresh. And doesn't Joseph say that something like the corpses can be sent to Ford, to Governor Ford?

John Turner 1:28:55 Well, I don't know if he specifically says the corpses, but it's along those lines. He says that if the mob comes and begins to destroy, then the sufferers could go to Governor Ford as evidence of persecution, and then he, He. The governor would know what to do.

John Dehlin 1:29:18 And on the one hand, you know, everyone's entitled to the right of self defense and mobocracy is evil. On the other hand, this is just another example of where Joseph's shenanigans endanger thousands or tens of thousands of his followers because he's a combination who has way too much power and way too much problematic behavior.

John Turner 1:29:43 Well, and if you, if you have followed Joseph's decision making in past conflicts, this is similar to some of his rhetoric in Missouri, which is, you know, get ready to fight. We're going to fight to the death. We're not going to give up another inch of land. We're not going to be driven off of our land again. Turns out that's mostly bravado. Not that he'll never authorize fighting back, but he's gonna back down instead of having his people massacred. But before he does, you often get this sort of, yeah, admittedly dangerous Bluster.

John Dehlin 1:30:29 Yeah. Yeah. Because it couldn't have very easily erupted into a. A battle between militias that could have left a lot of people dead.

John Turner 1:30:39 Absolutely. And this is a bit. This is a bit unfair to the Mormons, but had there been a standoff and had Mormon settlers fought back and, say, killed a couple members of the mob, the recriminations against the Mormons might have been severe.

John Dehlin 1:31:05 Yeah. So this was. This was really, really getting very serious and very dangerous.

John Turner 1:31:11 Very serious. Very quickly.

John Dehlin 1:31:12 Yeah.

Sermons, Mobs, and Escalating Crisis

John Dehlin 1:32:17 And so, of course, as we've already established today, that when things get really, really serious, Joseph needs to give another sermon. So he gives another sermon.

John Turner 1:32:28 Right? So, yeah. And you know, what he does is he really presents himself as a victim of religious persecution. He says, they say, like the apostates of old, I must be put down in particular because of his belief in a plurality of gods. And Joseph actually responds in a way that, I mean, that was hardly really the chief complaint against him, but he latches onto that in sort of a fun way. He makes a critique of the Trinity as nonsense. He says, if all are to be crammed into one God, it would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a giant. So, you know this.

John Dehlin 1:33:27 You can't have a God too powerful. You know, you gotta have a small G God, not a capital G God.

John Turner 1:33:34 Yeah. So. And, you know, again, Joseph. Joseph lays out some core parts of. Of his theology. I think there's just not really much time for sermonizing and theologizing in June of 1844.

John Dehlin 1:33:57 Yeah, but, but. And yet he does so. He even talks about Mother in heaven. He mentions that intelligences exist on top of each other, that God had a father, just like trees have progenitors. There's an endless stream of gods and saviors. And I remember being taught that Heavenly father Elohim. This is, I was taught this as a Mormon kid growing up. That Jesus name was Jehovah God, the Father's name was Elohim. And that Jesus, you know, Jehovah became God of this world. And that Elohim, Heavenly Father Jesus, dad, he had been a savior in a previous existence to his heavenly father God. And that likewise we would become possibly what saviors and, or gods ourselves. And I, I think that this type of teaching is where Brigham Young's eventual Adam God theory potentially springs from.

John Turner 1:35:13 So, yes, so I describe this as an endless chain of gods and saviors. And I think Joseph here is approaching these issues, I would say, with some creative logic. Right. So nothing exists without a progenitor. You know, when did it, when did a tree just spring into being by itself? And Joseph says intelligences exist one above another. There is no end. When Jesus, Jesus laid down his life and took it up again, he did so in imitation of his father, who would have done the same thing before him and all the way back. And then, yes, that men too can take their place among them and become, become the, the saviors and gods of other worlds.

John Dehlin 1:36:12 And just remind us how evangelicals and other Protestant Christians and even Catholics feel about these types of teachings.

John Turner 1:36:21 Well, we don't like it. No. At least officially. Right.

John Dehlin 1:36:27 Why don't you like it? What's wrong with God? Having a God, having a God, Jesus becoming God, there being a mother in heaven.

John Turner 1:36:35 Right.

John Dehlin 1:36:36 That sounds kind of fun. It's almost like Marvel superheroes in the heavens, like Super Friends or the Avengers, you know, lots of gods.

John Turner 1:36:46 When I say we don't like it, I'm sort of, I'm sort of quipping, but because, so the, the sort of classical. This goes all the way back to, you know, Greek philosophy in the several centuries after the life of Jesus down through the Reformation. But sort of classical, these classical philosophical ideas about God are among. Among them are that God never changes, that God has always existed, that God brought the universe, you know, created the universe out of nothing. These are all ideas that Joseph Smith takes, takes head on. And I actually like the, I like the fact that Joseph and his followers wanted, as he said in the King Fallet discourse, to go back to the beginning, to sort of go back to first principles, to ask sort of fundamental questions about God. Human beings and the relationship among, among them. And I think also there, you know, some, sometimes those were just good questions. So what I say later on is that we don't have evidence of Joseph teaching that there's a mother in heaven alongside God the Father. But it's not long after Joseph's death that Eliza R. Snow publishes a poem in Nauvoo and the Navu Church's Nauvoo newspaper that asks in the heavens, are parents single? Know the thought makes reason stare like it is. It is a little odd for Jesus to have a father and not a mother for God the Father to be a single dad. And you know, as a Protestant, I more or less, you know, stick, stick to some of those older ideas, but I have to acknowledge that, you know, Joseph, Joseph Smith could, could poke some pretty good holes in what apparently were long established and settled Christian doctrines.

John Dehlin 1:39:28 Is Joseph making you reconsider your Christian theology, John Turner?

John Turner 1:39:33 No, I'm just, I'm just being willing to express some, some admiration.

John Dehlin 1:39:37 Don't you want to become a God, John Turner?

John Turner 1:39:39 I mean, come on, you know, I'm just trying to get through the week.

John Dehlin 1:39:42 Me too, me too. I do think it's doubly ironic, number one, that these beliefs about men becoming gods and couples becoming celestial gods and having their own world someday and then parenting spiritual children, it is one of the most cherished, I think to this day one of the most cherished Mormon beliefs, faithful orthodox believing Mormons absolutely still believe these teachings about men becoming gods, men and women becoming gods and ruling over their own earths. And the church seems to be wanting to downplay or dismiss or distance itself from these teachings in 2026. And that's ironic for a lot of reasons.

John Turner 1:40:32 No, I agree. I mean, and I think as you know, to a substantial extent the church has leaned so heavily into Christocentricity, sort of Christ focused piety and devotion and doctrine in recent decades that I do think it's become more common. You can correct me if I'm wrong or listeners can correct me if I'm wrong. It's been more common, become increasingly common for Latter Day Saints to think about exaltation as becoming like Jesus Christ in terms of attributes in, in a way that is a, you know, at least a few steps closer to the Protestant ideas from which Joseph had dissented.

Habeas Corpus and Legal Maneuvering

John Dehlin 1:41:23 Yeah, so it seems like various times in this chapter, Joseph keeps invoking or taking advantage of habeas corpus and he has his own friendly judges just, you know, getting, getting him off the hook. Ex, explicating. Him. Is that a word?

John Turner 1:41:42 Yep.

John Dehlin 1:41:43 And that. That just makes his opponents even more and more outraged as it being a kind of a mockery of justice. Because Joseph just set. Set Nauvoo up to where he always gets off the hook anytime he's credibly charged. And so Joseph, he claims religious persecution. He doesn't take any responsibility for the polygamy or for the slander or any of the things that he does wrong. He hides behind religious persecution, which I always was taught that Joseph was a lamb to the slaughter and that it was. That the whole Carthage thing was just religious persecution. And now I realize that's just members repeating what Joseph was telling everybody, that he was just being religiously persecuted. So that's why I was never taught about the Nauvoo Expositor. I was just taught that Joseph was incarcerated for religious persecution. That's because that's what Joseph told everybody. But he goes further. He tell me if I'm right. He unsheathes his sword, he calls the militia together, he dresses up in his Nauvoo militia uniform, and he challenges his followers to die like men of God and secure their resurrection. And, you know, again, the Middle east is in the news these days, as it almost always is. You call it a holy war. I call it jihad. Martyr talk.

John Turner 1:43:16 So, yeah, I guess I'm a little bit less incendiary than you, Jondolin. I call it a call to die defensive.

John Dehlin 1:43:22 No, you put holy war. You wrote holy war.

John Turner 1:43:25 Yeah, I say defensive holy war. Like these people are going to come attack us, we're going to defend ourselves, and we're going to die as martyrs.

John Dehlin 1:43:31 That's pretty similar.

John Turner 1:43:33 Yeah, No, I hear you. Well, it's not going on. The attack, at least.

John Dehlin 1:43:37 Okay.

John Turner 1:43:38 I will say that, you know, this habeas corpus gambit, you know, that has essentially been largely tolerated by Illinois state authorities as long as Joseph was doing it to evade outside threats. So in Missouri is trying to extradite him on old charges from 1838 or even the bog shooting. You know, the, you know, Illinois governors are somewhat sympathetic to Joseph because they don't really think he should be hauled back to Missouri and possibly lynched, to put it bluntly. But now Joseph is using these legal shenanigans to try to avoid being prosecuted under state laws. And so it's a different scenario. And Joseph, you know, at this point, things are getting serious. And so Governor Ford comes to Carthage to sort of be on the scene and try to find a way of resolving this conflict. And Church leaders send him a defense of their actions, that they acted lawfully and without violence in. In removing the printing press. And Governor Ford just doesn't buy it. I mean, he doesn't. He doesn't want. I don't think he doesn't want Joseph and his people to be slaughtered, but he understands this evasion of justice as the provocation for mob action. And so he basically insists that Joseph submit himself to arrest and tells him nothing short of this can vindicate the dignity of violated law and allay the just excitement of the people. And Ford basically says, if you don't submit to arrest, I am afraid your city will be destroyed and your people, many of them, exterminated. And he forces the issue. He sends a posse of 30 men to arrest Joseph. And if he doesn't surrender, this is on Saturday, June 22. If he doesn't surrender by Sunday morning, you know, there's going to be. There's going to be serious. There's going to be serious action,

John Dehlin 1:46:38 and we'll see if Ford always chickens out or not. But he also promises Joseph safety, right?

John Turner 1:46:45 Correct. He's, you know, he. He encourages him that he will. He will be protected if he comes to Carthage and faces these charges.

John Dehlin 1:46:59 And do you think he believes he's going to protect Joseph when he makes those promises? Or do you think he's hoping that Joseph gets killed by a mob and is falsely misleading Joseph into feeling safe? Or do you even have enough information to make that call?

John Turner 1:47:16 That's such a great question. There's been a lot of debate about Governor Ford's intentions over the years. So in the end, and I realized this jumps a little bit bit ahead, he more or less leaves Joseph not very well protected in Carthage. And certainly at the. At the very least, he doesn't take threats against Joseph's life seriously enough. I think Ford, like many, like other politicians who encountered, you know, the Mormon problem, he. He wants the problem to go away. And I think he's probably happy for whatever facilitates the end of tension in western Illinois. But I think if pressed, I'd say no. He doesn't want Joseph to be murdered, but he definitely bears some responsibility for. For the failure to defend Joseph Smith from mob action.

John Dehlin 1:48:24 Yeah. Yeah. So whether or not he was setting a trap for Joseph, he clearly wasn't. He clearly was telling Joseph whatever Joseph needed to hear for him to achieve his ends. And he clearly didn't follow through on. On the promises of protection.

John Turner 1:48:41 Correct?

John Dehlin 1:48:42 Yeah. Okay. So the deadline set Sunday morning, and Joseph has to decide, do I flee or do I submit? And what does he decide to do?

The Decision to Flee or Surrender

John Turner 1:48:57 Well, he first decides to flee. So he tells William Clayton to bury the records of the. Or bury or destroy the records of the council of 50 because he's worried that that could get him into trouble. And then he. His brother Hiram flee across the Mississippi River. They take shelter in Iowa, and Joseph isn't sure what to do. He's thinking he might go to Washington, D.C. and beseech national leaders for assistance, which, of course, I think would have been fruitless. Then everybody, pretty much everybody, begins begging Joseph to reconsider. Because there is fear in Nauvoo that Joseph's flight will certainly not save the city from attack. And if anything could serve as an additional provocation. Yeah, And Joseph does get some additional information that at least the posse that's been sent to arrest him intends to protect him from. From mobs. And so people begin leaning on Joseph to change his mind. And it seems that pretty much everyone, from Emma Smith to Hyrum to Joseph's other advisors, they think he should give himself up. And Joseph, according to. To a very contemporary source, Joseph prays about it. He stops, composes his mind, and gets the will of the Lord concerning him, which was that he should return and give himself up for trial.

John Dehlin 1:51:17 Yeah, he decides to give him up. And some of the notes that I took that he does. He does suspend martial law, right? Yeah, he agrees to suspend martial law and to basically tell his own legion to kind of lay down their arms and stop, you know, rattling their sabers, to disband, and that they weren't crazy about disbanding, but they did it.

Speaker D 1:51:48 He.

John Dehlin 1:51:51 He tells Clayton, William Clayton, his scribe, to either bury or give his records to other people or in a worst case, to burn these records. And you list that his biggest concerns weren't the polygamy. It was his talks about theocracy and about being ordained as a king. And I was glad that Clayton didn't burn those documents. Aren't you?

John Turner 1:52:17 Well, very glad. So he buries them, but he unburies them in a. In a couple of weeks.

John Dehlin 1:52:24 So did you. You actually got to hold materials that were buried in that box, is that right?

John Turner 1:52:32 Well, I have not held the council of 50 minutes. I have.

John Dehlin 1:52:37 I have not. What about Clayton's diary?

John Turner 1:52:39 The Clayton diaries? Yes, but this. These. What Joseph referred to was the council of 50 minutes.

John Dehlin 1:52:46 He. He wasn't referring to Clayton's diaries, Correct. Oh, okay. Okay. All right. That'd be kind of cool. So. And then there's Joseph's fleeing. He gives Emma financial advice. He's not sure he's ever going to see her or his own children again.

John Turner 1:53:04 Right.

John Dehlin 1:53:05 And he gives her some. He tells her about some property and some people that could help her financially. I thought that was interesting.

John Turner 1:53:12 Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:53:13 Anyway. Oh, yeah. And you throw in there that Emma's pregnant, and so as Joseph's leaving her, possibly never to see her or her children again, that she's pregnant and it's her that feels abandoned most by Joseph. And in the end, she accuses Joseph of cowardice and shames him into returning.

John Turner 1:53:41 Well, no, on that, I have to be a little particular because I do think Emma feels abandoned. But after Joseph's death, as Emma is alienated from Brigham Young and other church leaders who go west with Brigham Young, people start blaming Emma Smith for Joseph's death, that Emma shamed him into returning by calling him a coward.

John Dehlin 1:54:15 Those were allegations, not necessarily substantiated.

John Turner 1:54:19 I think it's unsubstantiated. I don't think Emma. Emma did, of course, she never wanted Joseph to leave her in the midst of trouble. She didn't want to be left to fend for herself. And she's gone through that at a number of times in her life. But it's not Emma who shames Joseph into returning. Everyone convinces him that the better course of action is to submit to these charges and that that is the only way to preserve Nauvoo and the church and Joseph, ultimately, he feels that God tells him to give himself up and surrender.

John Dehlin 1:55:08 And I guess we can't. None of us have experienced such intense stress and opposition and pressure. So we probably should withhold the claim or the accusation that Joseph was displaying cowardice here by fleeing. Correct. Like, it's probably more complicated than just courageous or coward cowardice. Right.

John Turner 1:55:32 Yes. So I think Joseph is very uncertain about what to do. He's obviously the main target in the end for anti Mormons. And he has, you know, in Missouri, he gave himself up, and then he faced capital charges and was put in a squalid jail for four months while his people were persecuted and expelled. So, you know, for years, Joseph's been trying to avoid a reprise of what had taken place in Missouri, and there's no good solution. So ultimately, the solution is the one that Brigham Young agrees to in the fall of 1845, which is, we'll leave.

John Dehlin 1:56:24 Yeah. And clearly Joseph was traumatized by liberty jail, didn't want to do that again.

John Turner 1:56:30 Right.

John Dehlin 1:56:31 And also didn't want to die. You write that even his brother, Hiram Wanted him to give himself up.

John Turner 1:56:36 I think there are repeated assurances from the governor, from the captain of this posse. And Joseph has also once pretty recently gone to Carthage and come back. So he knows this is risky, but his intention would be go to Carthage. There'll be a hearing before a judge, you can post bail, and then you can come back to Nauvoo and figure out what to do next.

John Dehlin 1:57:12 So he decides to come back, tell us about his goodbyes, and then just take us through the rest of, you know, his time in Carthage and how it concludes.

John Turner 1:57:25 Sure. So I'll just include one quote that is, I think, well known to church members, is that as Joseph's going to Carthage, he runs into church member John Bernheisel, who remembers him saying, I'm going as a lamb to the slaughter. He may have said something to that effect. He knew that, you know, being killed was a possibility. And the church puts that recollection by Bernheisel into print just a couple of weeks after the fact, maybe a week after the fact. I don't think Joseph, he was not a willing martyr. You know, he did not expect to go to Carthage and get killed. He expected to post. Post bail, post bond and return. There's actually two goodbyes to Emma because a militia officer has an order that the Nauvoo Legion surrender its state arms. Joseph actually goes back to Nauvoo to tell the Legion to go along with this. They do it very reluctantly because they're afraid that if they disarm, they'll just be easier to slaughter. Then there's another round of goodbyes to Emma, to Joseph's children, to Lucy MacSmith, Joseph's mother. And then Joseph goes to Carthage. It's an ominous scene. It's a stormy night. The Carthage Grays, this militia unit in Carthage, they come out to jeer at Joseph when they can get a look at him. Then the next morning, there's a legal twist that ultimately proves important what Joseph. As I said, he was intending to post bail and dash home, but

Speaker C 1:59:35 a

John Turner 1:59:35 constable serves Joseph and his brother with arrest warrants on a charge of treason. Now, the actual substance of the complaint is fuzzy because the indictment and other relevant documents don't go into detail, but Joseph's understanding, and this seems to be Governor Ford's understanding as well, in it is because of the martial law proclamation and Joseph calling out the Nauvoo Legion to enforce it. So the reason why this is more serious is because you can't post bail on a charge of treason. And so Joseph is still Hoping to get back to Nauvoo as quickly as possible. And he and his defendants, on June 25, they do come before a justice of the peace, and they post bail on the charge of rioting from the destruction of the newspaper. But then Joseph and Hyrum are sent back to jail. All the other defendants can go back home to Nauvoo, but their hearing on the charge of treason is delayed because relevant witnesses are absent. So that sort of puts everything into legal suspension. Joseph and Hyram are stuck in Carthage jail. They can't have a hearing or post bail. And so that is what ultimately imperils them.

Carthage Jail and Final Days

John Dehlin 2:01:44 So, yeah, do you want to talk about the final, final few days?

John Turner 2:01:48 Sure. So that basically gets us to June 26th. And at that point, Joseph is more actively alarmed for his safety. Joseph's friends smuggle a couple of guns into the jail so the two men can defend themselves. Ford, meanwhile.

John Dehlin 2:02:23 And it's multiple guns. Number one, I was never taught that he, Joseph, had a gun, and I certainly wasn't taught that multiple people, that Joseph and Hyrum both had guns. That's something the Mormon Church, I don't believe ever, historically, has told its members because it doesn't fit with the lamb to the slaughter narrative.

John Turner 2:02:40 Exactly.

John Dehlin 2:02:41 If they're going to jail eventually armed, and they're shooting on their aggressors, that's a bit of a different picture than they're a lamb to the slaughter.

John Turner 2:02:52 Absolutely. So, again, Joseph is not a willing martyr. He's determined to defend himself legally and. With weaponry as well. So then Governor Ford and the bulk of the militia troops who had been in Carthage go to Nauvoo, and on the morning of the 27th, Ford makes a speech to the people of Nauvoo, asks them to obey state laws. People say that they will. They're not very happy about it. That means that the safety of Joseph and Hyrum rests Only on around 50 local militiamen who are very loosely guarding the jail.

John Turner 2:04:59 At this point, Joseph, his brother Hyrum are. They're in jail, accompanied by their friends Willard Richards and John Taylor. And, you know, there's some pretty detailed accounts by Willard Richards in particular. You know, really almost an hour by hour account of what transpires. Taylor sings a hymn. A poor wayfaring man of grief. A couple of times, Joseph chats with the guards. They send them to buy some wine. They drink to revive their dull and heavy spirits. They give the rest to the guards.

John Dehlin 2:05:49 You mentioned that he asked for wine and tobacco, which. I forgot the tobacco part. You don't, you don't indicate whether they smoked or. I think I saw a depiction of them smoking a pipe. But Mormons are so obsessed with the word of wisdom and alcohol and tobacco that obviously that piece of evidence can be shocking for Mormons to hear that it occurs to Joseph the night before his death to ask for wine and tobacco.

John Turner 2:06:21 Ask for wine, a pipe and some tobacco. I don't. I don't recall Richard's account mentioning them smoking the tobacco. I mean, I'm sure that was the intention. But they, they do revive their spirits with the wine. And then they hear rustling cries.

John Dehlin 2:06:42 Do you think they're not. Do you think they know they're about to get killed?

John Turner 2:06:46 I think once. So the initial hope had been post bail, go with Governor Ford to Nauvoo. Once they're. Once they are hit with this charge of treason and they're stuck in jail while Ford goes to Nauvoo. I think there's. I wouldn't say resignation per se, but there is definitely a sense of doom and danger. Joseph writes in his own handwriting to Emma. I am very much resigned to my lot. If people want to, essentially, if their enemies want to kill him, they have the opportunity to do so. And Joseph's aware of that. And he knows the jail is poorly defended. And certainly the local militia is not going to defend them. When they hear these noises and these shots, they can look out the windows of the jail. There's a hundred armed men at the jail's entrance. They're led by Colonel Levi Williams, Thomas Sharp, John C. Elliot, who had had some back and forth with Joseph half a year earlier are there. And the members of the Carthage jail really don't make any attempt to deter the attackers. Hyram and Joseph brandish their guns. Willard Richards and John tail Taylor. You know, they're going to defend themselves with canes, but it's just indefensible. The door to the room in which they are held doesn't even have a lock. So, you know, they lean against the door to try to hold back their attackers. It's all over pretty quickly, you know, a. A bullet comes through the door and strikes Hyram in the face. That kills him. Joseph's trying to fight back through a gap between the door and the frame. And Taylor tries to. Tries to leap from the east window. He shot as he prepares to try to escape. Joseph. I'll just read this part. Joseph also intended to jump at the window. However, the Prophet was struck from behind and by a shot fired from below, those wounds probably would have been fatal. O Lord, my God. Joseph exclaimed as he fell to the ground. It was the opening of the Masonic cry of distress, which continues. Is there no help for the widow's son? Many of Joseph's attackers were fellow Freemasons, but no one came to the Prophet's aid. Instead, members of the mob propped him up against a well and fired a few more balls into his chest. Joseph Smith was dead.

John Dehlin 2:10:17 So he does fall out of the window.

John Turner 2:10:19 Yep.

John Dehlin 2:10:20 Yeah.

John Turner 2:10:21 And then just to make sure, make sure he's dead, they fire a few more balls into his chest after they prop him up.

John Dehlin 2:10:33 And should that Masonic call have protected him in a normal circumstances or not. Was there some agreement that if somebody, if a Mason says that other Masons have to come to their aid, is that the agreement there?

John Turner 2:10:49 That's. That is the agreement. Now, apparently some Freemasons in Dixon, Illinois, were motivated to help Joseph when he was essentially abducted the previous summer. But I don't know how common it was for people to take that oath seriously, particularly in a circumstance such as this. And these men's hatred for Joseph Smith certainly outweighed any shared Masonic commitment.

John Dehlin 2:11:31 Yeah, and that's just a terrible scene of him and his brother getting shot, of him falling out the window, of them dragging him and then firing into the dying man and. Or his corpse. What a terrible, horrific, violent, unjustifiable lynch. I think lynching is. Okay. Lynching doesn't have to be a hanging. It's just mob. Mob execution. I mean, horrendous.

John Turner 2:12:05 Absolutely.

John Dehlin 2:12:08 Yeah. So, yeah, What a dramatic end. And that's kind of how the chapter ends.

John Turner 2:12:17 That's the end. And in a way, it's a cycle of events that kept repeating themselves since the early 1830s. In Missouri, the Mormons gather somewhere, there's opposition and they're attacked. And the mob activity ends when the Mormons agree to leave. And in this case, there were a number of Joseph's opponents who had concluded and Thomas Sharp, the editor of the Warsaw Signal, he puts this in into print that the only way essentially to kill this snake is to cut off its head. And the belief is that that's justifiable, that if you can kill Joseph Smith, this religious house of cards is going to collapse. And that proves not to be the case, but that is the way that these men justify this murder. And it's worth noting that there are some, I would say, half hearted attempts to bring sort of the ringleaders of the mob to justice. This all plays out against the ongoing backdrop of mob activity and tension about whether or not the Saints are going to leave Nauvoo. And so ultimately, nobody faces justice for Joseph's. The murders of Joseph and Hyrum.

The Killings of Joseph and Hyrum Smith

John Dehlin 2:14:14 Is that pretty outrageous?

John Turner 2:14:18 Of course it's outrageous. Now, part of the problem is there's a hundred people involved and even, you know, Mormon leaders would have been happy if the ringleaders had been brought to justice. Some of the men flee, some, some of them are indicted. The problem is, especially as the months pass, if you know more, the, you know, church leaders are even hesitant at a certain point to serve as witnesses in the prosecution of Joseph's murders because they're under ongoing threat from, from mobs. So for a variety of reasons, these killers don't face justice.

John Dehlin 2:15:13 Yeah, well, we are going to have a final episode, providing you and me. To sum up our, you know, our 40 episode journey, I found some really interesting, a really interesting polygamous story from my own polygamous ancestry that involves Elizabeth Smart, a teenage, a teenage polygamous marriage with sisters. That was kind of mind blowing to me. And it also involves a peep stone. So I'm not going to tell that story today. I'm going to tell it next time because I thought you'd get a kick out of it. But we want to. Before we close today, we want to remind our viewers and listeners that we have one more episode before we conclude the Joseph Smith podcast part of our series. Any final words you want to say today about Chapter 31 and about your book? Because the final chapter, why is it not just chapter 32? Is it just traditional to write an afterword or something, an epilogue.

Epilogue and Legacy of Joseph Smith

John Turner 2:16:19 I guess so. Because you're just not done talking after a few hundred pages. No. So what I do in the epilogue is I start by sketching out the fact that. That Joseph's corpse actually gets moved quite a bit after his death. And that's a bit of an intriguing story in its own right. And then I think this is fairly customary in a biography. I want to sort of take. Take stock of Joseph's life and legacy as. As a whole. And, you know, especially the last. Really most of Joseph's life, but especially the last few years of his life. They're so frenetic and they're so full of activity and controversy that I. And I think we. And you, John Dehlin, we need to take a breath and try to take stock of this story and what it means.

John Dehlin 2:17:23 Well, thank you for taking us through this really important chapter, and thank you for the amazing ride this whole thing has been. John Turner. And I do feel, you know, as much as I feel mixed about Joseph Smith's behavior, I think you'd have to be. You have to lack empathy as a human to not feel like, what a horrific, tragic end to a man that so many people loved, to a man that created a set of beliefs in a church that clearly people loved and continue to love. And clearly he didn't deserve that. He didn't deserve to be murdered in that way by a mob. And you might even be able to argue that those who don't like Joseph or the church, the murdering of Joseph Smith probably ended up growing the church more than it might have otherwise. That's speculatory. But what do you think?

John Turner 2:18:25 Well, in the 19th century, people always figured, well, if you. If you could get rid of Joseph Smith, you'd stamp this thing out. And then when they figured only Brigham Young was holding it together. So when Brigham Young died in 1877, a lot of hostile obituaries for him said, well, now the game's up. You know, this is all gonna. Gonna go away. I don't know if, you know, who knows how things would have gone had Joseph lived. The fact that Joseph was martyred, I think exalted him in the church and particularly in its theology and cosmology, in ways that might not have taken place had he lived. Now, you can see some of that exaltation with the acclamation of him as prophet, priest, and king, but the martyrdom definitely kicked that up a few notches in the rest of the 19th century. And also, certainly it's not only the martyrdom, it's also what transpired in Missouri and Illinois and elsewhere. But that deep sense of being a persecuted people that left a very deep imprint on the church.

John Dehlin 2:19:56 I mean, you only have to look to Jesus to know that killing a religious leader doesn't always lead to the elimination of his faith.

John Turner 2:20:06 Of course, it's not terribly good logic.

John Dehlin 2:20:09 Yeah, yeah. It may have been counterproductive to the cause of what they were hoping to achieve, so. But it did get him out of Illinois. That's true. For a time. For a time.

John Turner 2:20:24 Yeah. So, yeah, I think it's been a wild 40 episodes. I mean, for me, the, you know, the dramatic nature of the story, the complexity of Joseph's personality, the audacity of his actions, for me, they make Joseph a hard figure to ignore or turn away from. They make him very captivating, both the good and the bad.

John Dehlin 2:21:02 Well, that'll be our cliffhanger. That'll be our enticement to come back to our final episode where we give final thoughts on Joseph Smith, his character, his life and his legacy. So thanks to all our viewers and listeners for joining us today. Please subscribe and like this episode. Thank everyone who's donated to make it possible. If you value this series and you want to see John Turner get fully paid for it and the OSF get fully paid for it, you can still donate to this series by going to donorbox.org Joseph Smith I believe it's just a couple thousand bucks that we need to be able to fully pay you for all your episodes. So that'd be great. If you want to donate to the 10 part Brigham Young series, you can also donate there as well. Donorbox.org Joseph Smith I don't want to do that series if John Turner doesn't get paid for it. So let's just let everyone know that unless we receive the donations for that, I'm not going to want to do it. So. But thanks to Julia and Brooklyn and everyone at the Open Stories foundation of Mormon Stories for making all this possible. Please comment on these episodes. We love the comments. Please share. Please like please email us with feedback or criticisms. Yeah, and I think that's all I got. John Turner until next time.

John Turner 2:22:29 All right, goodbye everybody. If you've made it through 40 episodes, I'm trusting you can do one more.

John Dehlin 2:22:34 One more.

John Turner 2:22:35 See you next time.

John Dehlin 2:22:36 All right. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Buy this book. Joseph Smith, the Rise and Fall of an American Prophet. Let's make it an international bestseller. If it isn't already. And we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care of.

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