Book of Abraham & “God Making” in Nauvoo

Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin 0:00 Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of the Joseph Smith Podcast brought to you by Mormon Stories podcast. I'm Dr. John Dehlin and I'm here with Dr. John Turner. Hi Dr. John Turner.

John Turner 0:11 Hi Doctor John Dehlin.

John Dehlin 0:12 Glad to hear we're two Dr. John's.

John Turner 0:15 It's concerning

John Dehlin 0:18 today we are on part 28 of our multi part series on Joseph Smith based on this wonderful book, Joseph the Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by the other Dr. John. Today we are going to be covering part of chapter 24 of his book. The chapter is called Upper Rooms 1842. Last episode we talked about Joseph Smith's first year of polygamy and we are going to take a brief pause on polygamy to cover part of this chapter which covers Joseph's re engagement with the book of Abraham, the mummy and the scrolls and what came out of that which was a lot of interesting theological innovations around the pre existence premortal life and what Mormons call the plan of salvation. We even hear about Kolob and this is where the emergence of Jesus as a separate being and Jesus Jesus as a God and multiple gods and even the eventual teaching of theosis where humans can also become gods, this is the time where that all starts coming together. And that's just part of this chapter. The other part of this chapter which we're going to cover in the next episode is the Masonic Lodge coming to Nauvoo its influence in Joseph Smith's creating the endowment. But more importantly, next episode we're going to be talking about as Joseph Smith continues his practice of polygamy, him needing ways to keep it all secret and something that was scandalous to me that I think many of you may already know is the question you know, was a core purpose of the creation of the Relief Society or the Mormon women's group group was a core reason for that secrecy and damage control around polygamy. And was the emergence of the endowment, the super sacred Mormon temple ceremony, also deeply rooted not just in the theology that we're going to talk about today, but also was it deeply rooted in Joseph needing mechanisms for secrecy to teach and and control the secrecy of polygamy? So that's a teaser for next episode. Really quickly we want to thank everyone for joining us today. Please subscribe and like this channel. We're just a couple thousand away from 300,000 on YouTube. It'd be great to break that barrier. We want to thank all our donors that make Mormon stories and this series with John Turner possible. And if you are not a donor yet and you value this series and you want to see it continue, please go to donorbox.org Joseph Smith and become a monthly donor to this series. We're trying to twist John Turner's arm to see if he'll go past Joseph Smith in the series. And yeah, so that's. Oh, also this again is a obviously multi part series and it's best consumed in sequence. And so if you're just dropping into this series and you want the full experience, you can go to Spotify or, or the Joseph smith Podcast on YouTube and you can start this series from the beginning and watch 27 episodes before this one to really get the full impact. All right. Is that enough throat clearing for today, John Turner?

John Turner 4:05 I think so. And you talking about secrecy, it reminds me that when, if anybody ever asks me to keep something in confidence and I think I can do so, I always channel Joseph Smith and say I can keep a secret till doomsday.

John Dehlin 4:23 That's what he said.

John Turner 4:24 That's what he said in December of 1841. I don't think I used that quote in this book, but it's a great quote.

John Dehlin 4:32 No, I read that. I read that today.

John Turner 4:34 It's in there.

John Dehlin 4:34 I'm pretty sure it's in there.

John Turner 4:35 Yeah, maybe it is.

John Dehlin 4:37 I really want to share that with the those who are claiming that Joseph Smith didn't practice polygamy. I think it's an important quote to challenge the idea that, oh, there was no Nauvoo polygamy because Joseph wouldn't lie. He's good at keeping a secret and he's good at, as we'll see in next episode, good at encouraging others to keep his secrets as well.

John Turner 5:03 That is true. No, that is a key theme in this chapter. It had become significant really, starting in 1838 with the Danites, which were also a secret organization with oaths of secrecy and promises of secrecy. So absolutely no.

John Dehlin 5:28 But also the Fanny Alger. The Fanny Alger story is an example of Joseph Smith needing to keep something secret because clearly it was an affair that he denied and did not want other people talking about it. And all of those things, in my opinion, inform what we're going to talk about next episode. About secrecy as well.

John Turner 5:49 Yeah, well, we won't spill the beans now.

The Red Brick Store as a Sacred Space

John Dehlin 5:53 Well, let's talk about the red brick store because that's the place where it all happens.

John Turner 5:59 Yeah. So the rooms where it happens.

John Dehlin 6:03 The rooms where it happened. The rooms where it happened.

John Turner 6:06 Yeah. So by, I think very late 1841, maybe the very new year of 1842, Josephus had this red brick store or red brick building completed, which is not very far back from the banks of the Mississippi river in Nauvoo. It's just down the street from where Joseph and his family live. Red brick store. The store was one purpose of the building that was on the ground floor, but then the upper floor included an office, also included a meeting space. There are some references to Joseph also having a translating space, which that might have been one of his offices. And so much that we're going to be talking about in this episode and upcoming episodes centers on this particular place in the city of Nauvoo. This particular building and those upper rooms in particular are where so many significant things take place.

John Dehlin 7:26 Is that red brick building standing, still standing to today and can it be visited?

John Turner 7:33 So, yes, I'm, I hope I'm not incorrect in thinking that the original is still standing.

John Dehlin 7:43 Julia can tell us for sure she's

John Turner 7:45 been there rather than it being.

John Dehlin 7:47 Yeah, Julia. Julia says she's been there so many times. So Julia is saying yes, yeah, I've

John Turner 7:52 been, I've been there as well. So the last, when I was there, which was a few years ago, that building was still owned by Community of Christ. And in the store, you know, you could buy, you know, you could buy souvenir stuff, kind of Nauvoo. Nauvoo Merch. That building was part of the major transaction, the major purchase that the LDS Church made from Community of Christ

John Dehlin 8:26 just last year, right? A couple years ago. Yeah.

John Turner 8:29 Yeah. We're coming up on the two year mark. Okay, so that is now owned by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I don't know, you know, how it has changed in terms of its use since that purchase.

John Dehlin 8:48 All right, well, yeah, so, but, but for those who want to go visit it, they can, and it's an important landmark. You mentioned that Joseph, that members of the church were eager to purchase their sugar, coffee and tea from the prophet. So even though this is post Word of Wisdom, I didn't even register this until now. Mormons in Nauvoo are buying coffee and tea from their prophet out of the red brick store. I had no idea.

John Turner 9:22 Yeah, so yeah, there's a bit of back and forth as we've already talked about. There's a bit of back and forth on the Word of wisdom in the 1830s and early 1840s. But coffee, tea, wine, to some extent, you know, there was no strict prohibition on those things in Nauvoo. Now, as someone with a serious coffee addiction, I You know, I take no issue with that, John de Lynn.

John Dehlin 9:55 Nor do I. Nor do I. All right, so the, the, the picture you paint is that the commerce is going in, going, going down on the first floor, but Joseph's upstairs on the second floor getting busy. And the first, the first thing that you mentioned him getting busy with is what you call the Egyptian materials.

Origins and History of the Book of Abraham

John Turner 10:18 Correct.

John Dehlin 10:20 Which we have discussed in a previous episode of this series when Joseph first gets them in Kirtland. So this is again part two of our discussion of the Egyptian materials. For those who want to get the full discussion.

John Turner 10:37 Yeah, no. And for those who just want a little bit of a recap. In 1835, Joseph purchased mummies and papyri from a traveling merchant and then did a number of things with the papiri in particular, which were more significant to him. He identified them as the writings of Abraham. And the biblical Joseph worked on a grammar and Alphabet which were intended to, I would say, decode and expand on the meanings of the hieroglyphs. And then he dictated the beginning of a narrative. In 1835, Joseph haltingly dictated through what is now chapter two, verse 18 of the book of Abraham. And then By November of 1835, Joseph had broken off from that translation project for reasons that aren't entirely clear, that I partly attribute to his frustration with the language. He sort of diverted his linguistic interests into the study of Hebrew, particularly in the early months of 1836, and then he never got back to the Egyptian project. There are a lot of references in the late 1830s to Joseph, showing individuals, the mummies and the papyri and his intention to return to them. But he doesn't return to the Book of Abraham narrative in earnest until, I think, February of 1842.

John Dehlin 12:55 I, at this point, I just want to note a couple quick things. I did an entire, like 12, 13 hour series with Egyptologist Robert Ridner about the Book of Abraham. It's definitely one of the top five most important things I've ever done in Mormon stories. If you want a real Egyptologist sort of translation of the Book of Abraham and official commentary on to what extent it is not an actual translation, check that out. I think we discussed last episode John Turner, that these papyri were dated in terms of actual age to be thousands of years after Abraham would have lived, if he even was an actual historical figure, which would have made it impossible for them to be written by the hand of, of Abraham just right off the bat. And I just want to make sure we establish that Even today in 2026, the Mormon Church has issued a Gospel topics essay on the Book of Abraham where it acknowledges that the word Abraham appears nowhere on the papyri or, you know, any of the materials acknowledging that they're not, they were not written by the hand of Abraham as Joseph Smith claimed. That's something the Mormon Church just seeds in 2026. So whatever Joseph we're going to be talking about Joseph doing, he got it wrong as to what the papyri were. And the translation can't be right because the document wasn't even what he thought it was to begin with. Is that okay to establish that? Did I get any of that wrong?

John Turner 14:41 No, that's correct. When, and I think if listeners want to get into the weeds, if they look at the papyri, including. If they look at the papyri on the Joseph Smith Papers Project where you can see high resolution images, the JSP website, when it discusses the dating and content of these ancient documents, it follows pretty closely the conclusions of Egyptologists such as Robert Rittner, whom they cite as an authority on the translation and meaning of these documents. So, yeah, what you said was a, was a totally fair summary and Julia

John Dehlin 15:45 was kind enough to just provide us with that link. And here it is on the Joe Smith Papers Project. It says introduction to Egyptian papyri circa 300-100 BC and, and, and really quickly, John Turner, when if Abraham had lived at all, what approximate century or millennia would he have lived?

John Turner 16:11 So if you follow the chronology in the Bible, I'm thinking backwards. Moses is typically dated, I think to 13 or 1200 B.C. abraham perhaps around 2000 B.C. maybe give or take a century. Some folks lived a long time back then and had children late in life, including Abraham. So maybe that's a little bit fuzzy, but yes, almost two millennia from the date of these documents. Now, I think one thing the church has left open is the idea that perhaps we only have a small percentage of the papyri, that some portion may have been lost. It seems that most likely there's not an enormous percentage lost. But I do think if you, if you follow the scholarship on the Joseph Smith Papers Project website, the pretty clear implication is that there is no textual connection between what Joseph dictates for the Book of Abraham and the papyri themselves. There's also no connection between the glyphs on the papyri and the meanings ascribed to them in Joseph's Alphabet and grammar that he produced in 1835. So it's very fair to say that the papyri served as an object of inspiration for Joseph Smith, a catalyst for his creative thought and dictation. They're not a textual source for the book of Abraham.

John Dehlin 18:27 And the only other thing I'll just add, just so that people have their facts straight, as straight as. I could help with that. For the apologists that want to argue that, oh, the parts that Joseph translated got burned or lost in the fire, that's. That's not accurate, according to Rittner. And I guess you would agree. Is that right? Because we have the Egyptian and Alphabet grammar, which corresponds to the fragments that we still actually have today. And what Joseph published in, you know, in the Times and Seasons or whatever, the. Whether it's the hypocephalus or whatever, that also corresponds to what we have today. So all of the evidence that we have of what Joseph actually worked with corresponds with. With what was published at the time. And so there's no real reason to believe that some magical stuff is missing, because what's published ties to what we have today. Is that fair?

John Turner 19:36 That's totally fair. I am not an Egyptologist. If you just showed me the fragments that remain from the papyri, I would have no better chance of translating or decoding them than Joseph Smith had. But the Egyptologists who have examined them, their conclusions accord with what you just outlined, John Delenn. And I do think it's noteworthy that the Church History department itself has at least taken significant steps toward acknowledging that.

John Dehlin 20:16 And also, Julia was kind enough to share with us. Just because we know our viewers and our. Our audience likes evidence and likes to dig deep. We'll put in the show notes reference to past episodes where we've actually done deeper analysis on the fragments, what is missing from the fragments. And I think we've even done episodes comparing the missing fragments and the overall remnants of the scrolls to other scrolls that are pretty much identical, showing that we're really not missing that much, if anything materially at all. Okay, so I won't belabor that point, but I just. I want to make sure people have the information that they need to make informed decisions in their lives. So let's continue with the Egyptian materials. John Turner.

Joseph Smith Resumes the Book of Abraham

John Turner 21:16 Sure. So Joseph resumed his dictation of the Book of Abraham in February of 1842. As far as I know, he didn't do so through a close engagement with the papyri at this time. He may have consulted some of the other documents that he created in 1835, such as the grammar and the Alphabet. Wilford Woodruff commented that month that the Lord is blessing Joseph with power to reveal the mysteries of the kingdom of God, to translate through the Urim and Thummim, ancient records and hieroglyphics as old as Abraham or Adam. So that's sort of a stray suggestion that Joseph might have used his seer stone as a vehicle for. For this dictation. But I think it's also just as likely, probably more likely, that Joseph simply dictated the text that month, and then Joseph and his associates finally began publishing this material. And if you think about that for a little bit, if you are a member of the church from 1835 forward, you've probably heard a lot about the book of Abraham and these Egyptian materials. It's quite probable that you found the opportunity to see the mummies and the papyri on display. And I'm not sure this was at the top of every church member's mind in the intervening seven years. There were a lot of other things going on. But Joseph now finally makes public his translation, and the first portion is published in the church's Times and Seasons newspaper in March of 1842. That includes a portion of the narrative and then also a facsimile with some interpretive notes by Joseph.

John Dehlin 23:56 Yeah, and I do want to note something that I noted. This was really important to me. The bottom of page 266, you write, this is Apostle Wilford Woodruff quote, the Lord is blessing Joseph. Wilford Woodruff wrote in his diary that February quote, with power to reveal the mysteries of the kingdom of God, to translate through the Urim and Thummim, ancient records and hieroglyphics as old as Abraham or Adam. And I know you mentioned this before, but I'm mentioning again because one of the really important things I observe Joseph needs to do is have his believers continually believe that he has special powers. And so for. And maybe he believed he did have special powers. So I'm not necessarily implying that he was being deceptive here, but it is important because testimonies have been and are rooted in the belief that Joseph had special powers. And so that doesn't mean don't believe in Joseph Smith. It just means know that there are times where he claims to have special powers, where he probably at least doesn't have the powers that you may think or may have been taught that he had, because in this case, he clearly didn't have the power to translate from God, because we now know it was a false translation, and he didn't even know what the scroll was to begin with. And so I just. I just want to highlight that, because I do think it's an important part of people's devotion to him. Is that, is that fair? Is that okay to say, in your view, John?

John Turner 25:47 Well, I mean it's, it's definitely okay to say. I think the other, the other thing that had occurred to me about that is I think Joseph, I think he does wrestle with that back in 1835. I do think he gets frustrated with his Egyptian project and sort of in two different ways. I mean, number one, yes, there's sort of a claim of a supernatural gift to translate. And at the same time Joseph also, he wanted to develop more natural proficiency with ancient languages. It's one reason he becomes so fixated on Hebrew as well. And I do think that either as a supernatural gift or just natural ability or some combination of those two, I do think that when he started on the Egyptian project in the summer of 1835, I think he thought he was going to be able to do it. And I think he grew frustrated when it proved more difficult than he thought. And I think that's one reason he ends up shelving the project for so many years. So I think a good question which I don't really address in the book is what gets him jump started again and he doesn't explain that. So these thoughts are necessarily speculative. But this does occur pretty much in tandem with his developing interest in Freemasonry, which we're going to talk about in the next episode. And so I don't think it's coincidental that his interest in Freemasonry catalyzes the reemergence of his interest in this project.

Translation Methods and Apologetic Theories

John Dehlin 27:53 That's an interesting theory about an impetus. Let me ask you one question about translation. Obviously in modern times, Mormon apologists have developed what we talked about in the previous Book of Abraham chapter, this catalyst theory, that while Joseph maybe thought he was translating a document that he did not understand, it's still possible for a believing Mormon to believe that he was channeling revelation from God, in other words, real revelation and doctrine around the pre existence and the life of Abraham, that he was still channeling that as revelation, even if he thought he was actually translating. But that kind of causes me to want to ask, you know, there's a magic worldview. I mean, we know that even though we know that Joseph Smith, when he was translating the Book of Mormon didn't have the plates in the room because all the witnesses testified that there were no plates in the room. So all he needed was the Urim and Thummim or the Seer Stone. In the hat to channel or reveal the text that he produces for the Book of Mormon. So you could say, why did he ever even try to translate Egyptian or to create the grammar and Alphabet? Why didn't he just channel the Book of Abraham like he channeled the Book of Mormon with the stone in the hat? Have we already talked about that? And do you have a theory about why he bothered?

John Turner 29:38 Yeah. So, I mean, my theory is he, he did want to be able to decode and translate these papyri. He wanted both to have that supernatural gift of translation, which he certainly claims in the late 1820s, not just on the basis of the production of the Book of Abraham, but if you look at his sort of revelatory back and forth with Oliver Cowdery about that gift, you know, he claims that he, you know, that, that he has. That he also, I think, wants to earn some respect for his human knowledge and scholarly ability. I think on some level he's tired of other people referring to him as an ignorant, ignorant rube, so to speak. And he wants to show others that he does have some intellectual and translating chops of the more natural kind. I think that's one reason, in addition to his own interest, which that might be more important, but that's one reason for his passionate interest in Hebrew and dabbling with Greek. And I think like a lot of Americans and Europeans at the time, he presupposes there's some connection between ancient Egyptian and Hebrew. And I think he's hoping that his Hebrew study will aid him in his attempt to understand Egyptian. So I think you have both of those things going on at the same time. He wants this, know, the supernatural gift of translation. He also wants to, you know, prove proof his intellectual metal a bit as well.

John Dehlin 31:38 It does make me wonder why there wasn't a reformed Egyptian grammar and Alphabet. In other words, why he didn't attempt the same type of secular translation of the, quote, alleged reformed Egyptian characters on the golden plates, if indeed the golden plates were real and if indeed there was ever a language called reformed Egyptian. But that would just be speculative. But. But it's an interesting. It's a fair question, right?

John Turner 32:06 Yeah, well, it is. I think he did in 1835, he suggested that the hieroglyphics at least resembled the characters on the Book of Mormon plates. So he sees a lot of intermingling similarity connection there. I think so. I mean, in Joseph's mind, all of these things come together. They didn't come together in that way in the ancient world.

John Dehlin 32:51 Yeah. And it is the idea that God didn't bother to tell Joseph what he was actually looking at in terms of the papyri is, let's just call it kindly a mystery for those who are believing that Joseph and God spoke to each other. And by the way, that's the second thing that I think was an important part of the Book of Abraham, that it's Joseph being able to reveal the mind and will of God and in this case, important theology and doctrine. Like not only did Joseph want people to believe he had special powers, he wanted, needed people to believe that he could reveal the mind and will of God. And this Book of Abraham project would be a way for him to do that. Let me quickly show a painting that you show in your book. Do you want to describe this painting, John Turner, really quick?

John Turner 33:45 Oh, well, yeah, I'm actually, I'm thrilled at the opportunity to describe it because it's a lovely painting. It's by Sutcliffe Maudsley, who also created some sketches of Joseph Smith. A lot of listeners might be familiar with one on the COVID of Richard Bushman's Rough Stone Rolling, but in this case it's a portrait of Lucy Mack Smith, Joseph's mother, probably around the year 1842. And she's sitting in a rocking chair holding a Book of Mormon and above her head is a framed vignette from the Book of Abraham papyri.

John Dehlin 34:46 And here's a close up. I got a close up of it now.

John Turner 34:48 Yeah, we know from some other sources that she was quite taken with this project of her sons and very supportive and sympathetic to it. And Joseph also, this, this may have also been. It's possible it was displayed on that. It actually was displayed on the wall of the home. In 1842. Joseph apparently talked with some visitors about wanting to hang both the papyri and his translation of them in the Nauvoo Temple. So Joseph, Joseph wanted people to see these materials.

John Dehlin 35:49 And would that have been a cutout or a reproduction of the. Is that the hypocephalus? What? The facsimile. That's one of the facsimiles. Right. And would that have been, if that was actually an actual, let's call it painting, hanging above where Lucy Mack Smith was sitting in a rocking chair. Would that have been a reproduction? Or like did they actually cut it out and stick it in a frame?

John Turner 36:21 Well, what. So I, I suppose I was speculating off the top of my head, but it's, it seems to be what is from the times and seasons rather than the original fragment because the Original fragment wouldn't have the head of the figure on the left, nor would it have the numbers that we can see here because of you blowing it up so much.

John Dehlin 36:52 Because that stuff was drawn in.

John Turner 36:54 Correct.

John Dehlin 36:54 Which all stuff we talk about with Robert Ritter. So I'm guessing that this is it, facsimile one or two. Do you remember?

John Turner 37:04 This is one.

John Dehlin 37:05 So I wonder if it was facsimile one that made Joseph identify these mummies, these mummy scrolls, as being from Abraham. I mean, we talked about this before, but Joseph reads the Bible all the time, starting from childhood in his mind, when this Egyptomania craze is going through the world because Napoleon is taking over Europe and blowing off the nose of the Sphinx and they're excavating the pyramids and sharing mummies and papyri and Egyptian relics worldwide. As Egyptomania sweeps through, Joseph's got Egypt on the brain because of the Bible. And then he sees this image maybe as facsimile one and tell us what in Joseph's mind, it looks like it could be. And then you could tell us what it actually is.

John Turner 38:05 So, Joseph. And if you look at the, you know, the published facsimile one, and I believe the explanations are published in the Book of Abraham as well, they're certainly published in the Times and Seasons. Joseph provides a guide and interpretation of the objects in the image. So he identifies the figure that you see horizontal as Abraham. He identifies the figure, the standing figure, as the idolatrous priest of Elkanah attempting to offer up Abraham as a sacrifice.

John Dehlin 38:57 Now, is that biblical?

John Turner 39:00 That is not biblical.

John Dehlin 39:01 So he. So where would he have gotten this idea that Abraham was ever on an altar to be sacrificed? I would have thought he would have maybe thought Abraham having Isaac on an altar, maybe, or something like that.

John Turner 39:14 So first of all, well, that's actually not a. That wouldn't have been a bad thought, but the scene wouldn't have looked like Abraham and Isaac going up a mountain, I think, necessarily. But so the Book of Genesis does have Abraham traveling to Egypt. I think Joseph did take inspiration in part from this image in terms of his. The narrative that he unfolded of Abraham having this encounter with these idolatrous, idolatrous priests who prepare to sacrifice him and then being rescued by God from, you know, from that possible outcome. It's also, I do think it's important to note and listeners who are interested, they could refer to your interview with Robert Rittner or Robert Rittner's writings on the Book of Abraham, the papyri fragment that contains this image. Well, it's called a fragment for a reason. And the head of the figure that you showed a few minutes ago isn't present in the fragment. So Egyptologists who are familiar with this image imagery believe that it would have been, would have been the jackal headed Egyptian God Anubis reanimating a corpse rather than anyone planning to stab or sacrifice an individual.

John Dehlin 41:23 And I'll just share, just, I'll just share an image just to let people know what, you know, what, what's going on. So in the image above, we've got the fragment that Joseph would have had where it's missing the head of the character on the left and it's missing part of the body, the character on the left standing, the character in the middle lying down. It's missing the body of the character lying down in the middle and the head of the character on the left at the bottom is, you know, a similar identical facsimile that we would have had probably a different scroll that, you know, because this is a common, what they say is a common funerary text. In other words, this facsimile probably appears all over Egypt at some ancient point. Is that right, John Turner?

John Turner 42:20 That's my understanding.

John Dehlin 42:22 So the head, like you say, would have been a jackal as it's, as it's reflected below. But Joseph didn't know that. So instead he drew in a human head as what, this idolatrous priest. Allegedly.

John Turner 42:38 Correct.

John Dehlin 42:38 And then, yeah, and then of course, Joseph, he's got a sword there, Joseph's drawing in a sword or a knife there into the hand of the idolatrous priest. That's, you know, him just imagining what's going on on the table. I would just have to guess that Joseph thinks Abrahamic sacrifice, Abraham, Isaac's sacrifice, and somehow merges that as kind of Old Testament fan fiction with his guess of what's going on. It's like, hey, if Abraham's sacrificing Isaac, possibly, maybe Egyptians were sacrificing people on altars too. I'm just speculating there, but what we have below is what actually was missing. It wasn't a knife in the hand of Anubis, but instead it's some bird. And again, Robert Ritter describes all this, but this shows what Joseph got wrong, how he filled in the blanks and what actually the facsimile one is which, which again, it's, it's Anubis doing what? JOHN Turner.

John Turner 43:53 Reanimating a corpse.

John Dehlin 43:55 Reanimating a corpse. So that's what Egyptian Theology that the God Anubis could do that if he needed to.

John Turner 44:04 Well, I mean, you wouldn't want to underestimate Anubis. No, no, that's my understanding. Again, again, this is. It's not my field of expertise, but yes, because. Because the, the original for when Joseph examined it, and for us, because the original was fragmentary, Joseph and his associates, they filled in the gaps. He worked with somebody. He worked with a church member named Reuben Hedlock to create a woodcut that served as the basis for what was published in the Times and Seasons. And, you know, they had to fill it in to, you know, make it, make it look decent. And what they recreated corresponded with the text that Joseph had dictated back in 1835.

John Dehlin 45:12 Okay, so, yeah, so again, this painting that's above, you know, Lucy Smith's, you know, painting, slash rocking chair, at a minimum, it just shows how, how impressive or significant or important this Book of Abraham must have been at the time Joseph was working on it. Is that, that right, John Turner?

John Turner 45:39 That's correct. And I, you know, I do like that visual of the Book of Mortal Mormon and this vignette from the Book of Abraham together, you know, sort of these two translation projects, which Joseph does see as connected.

John Dehlin 46:00 Yeah, it's two examples of Joseph's ability to use his special powers to translate ancient records by the gift and power of God to channel to us doctrines and theology and revelations of salvation for mankind. Okay, let's keep going.

The Book of Abraham and the Plan of Salvation

John Turner 46:20 Okay, so then I think that first issue of the Times and Seasons, it contained the text that Joseph had dictated back in 1835. But now Joseph, you know, he's moving forward. So Joseph had gotten, you know, he'd gotten Abraham rescued from the idolatrous priest. The next portion has Abraham and Sarah journeying to Egypt because of a famine in Canaan, and Abraham through the Urim and Thummim, I think that's stated in the text, receives sort of cosmological revelation. He sees great stars, including one named Kolob nearest to the throne of God. The ideas were already present back in 1835 for Joseph, but now, now he introduces them as he unfolds this story. And one of the key teachings. Well, there's a. There's a number of key theological teachings here. One of them is that all spirits are eternal without beginning or end. That's an idea that Joseph had introduced back in 1833. So even, even before this project. Along with that, though, Joseph, well, the Lord teaches Abraham that just as one star is always brighter than another star, one Spirit is always more intelligent than another spirit. There are all of these degrees of intelligence, glory, and power.

John Dehlin 48:44 Yeah. And so this is going to be familiar to believing, faithful Mormons as well. Abraham, you know, the text that we know as the Book of Abraham, but also the kernels of what becomes the Mormon Plan of salvation, which, you know, when I was growing up, there was this film called. Oh, Anyway, families are eternal. Families are forever. Different versions of media produced by the church, but. But the church used as its core missionary effort for many decades, asking possible investigators, have you ever wanted to know where you came from, why you're here and where you're going? In other words, this, what, what Mormons today call the plan of salvation, or now it's been morphed into the. The plan of happiness. But, you know, if you catch somebody who's struggling with their meaning and purpose in life, they're down on their luck. They don't even know why they're existing. They're in sort of a existential, nihilistic, or even atheistic or secular angst, and life isn't going well. If you can say, hey, we're Mormon missionaries and we can tell you where you came from, why you're here in this life and where you're going, that's. That got people really interested, potentially. I used it as a Mormon missionary for two years. This is where that all gets its start and really quickly, because it's mentioned in your book, and it's important, and it appears, I think, in the Book of Abraham. Talk about Kolob really quick, because that speaks to the material nature, that God isn't just a spirit or an essence or, or an energy. Joseph Smith needs God to be a corporeal being, you know, and, and, and, you know, for him to have existed as a human, he needs to have a body. Right. So. And for him to have a body as a God, he needs a place to reside. And it turns out that place has a name. And Joseph Smith learned it.

Plurality of Gods and Premortal Existence

John Turner 51:04 Yeah, absolutely. And, yeah. So I'll just read a couple verses from the Book of Abraham. They're probably familiar to a lot of listeners. You know, there are the governing ones, stars. And the name of the Great One is Kolob, because it is near unto me. For I am the Lord thy God. I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest. And the Lord said unto me, by the Urim and Thummim, that Kolob was after the manner of the Lord, according to its times. And seasons in the revolutions thereof. That one revolution was a day unto the Lord after his manner of reckoning, it being 1000 years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. Maybe not the most felicitous language, but this is the reckoning of the Lord's time according to the reckoning of Kolob. So I would say Joseph here doesn't really articulate the idea that God is a corporeal being living on a planet. He does, if I could skip around just a little bit, he does, during these months, talk about something along those lines with sort of a small gathering of church members in Nauvoo. He states that God the Father was once the same as those who came after Him. He redeemed a world and became the eternal God of that world. Then Jesus Christ followed in his Father's footsteps and redeemed this earth by doing so, becoming really his Father's equal in a way. And so I do think that already Joseph is articulating the ideas that are probably most remembered in the King Follett discourse from the closing months in Nauvoor.

John Dehlin 53:41 Correct? Yeah, that's, that's right. But, and I did search, I've tried to search for where Joseph came up with the word collab, if it indeed wasn't direct revelation from God. And I, I'm actually unfamiliar familiar with anywhere that word ever appears. But, but he does state it's the throne of God. Right. And it is a star. Right.

John Turner 54:07 So he states that it's a star and that it is near unto me. I think in some of the other Egyptian materials, maybe the grammar and Alphabet, where he does first introduce the term, it's introduced back in 1835, I think in those, he, he says that it is nearest to the throne of God. I'd have to double check those references.

John Dehlin 54:39 Okay. And then also he introduces this idea of intelligences. And just to let our viewers and listeners who have never been Mormon know how that was taught to me as a Mormon growing up, it's this idea that this is how it eventually evolves into modern day, that Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mothers were the creators of our spirits, but that we existed, we each of us existed as intelligences, which is like a pre spirit identity, individual identity that existed prior to Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother or Heavenly Mothers sort of spiritually birthing us into existence. And it's this, I think it interacts with this idea of free will or determinism. Ultimately we're going to be making choices in this pre existence. And if we're all just the product of God, then any choice we make, it's kind of God's fault because he made us that way. And so in a very, I don't know, some would say sophisticated way, Joseph Smith comes up with this idea of intelligences that is basically a priest spirit that then makes all of our eternal decisions ultimately on us, not on God for creating us. Because before we were spirit children, we were intelligences with our own, I guess, mind and will. And that is what is meant by intelligences as it ends up being written into Abraham and taught as Mormon doctrine subsequently. That's your understanding? John Turner?

John Turner 56:31 Well, yes, I believe there's a lot there. John Dehlin I think some of those distinctions and I think the specific doctrine of spirit birth, those are articulated after Joseph's death. By mid to late 19th century Mormon leaders and thinkers, Joseph in the Book of Abraham simply states that the Lord shows Abraham the intelligences that were organized before the world was, I think Joseph, or at least, you know, my interpretation of Joseph here is that he's using the terms intelligence and spirit more or less as synonyms. And I think the verb organized is certainly very intentional rather than created. So yes, it's really important, it's important to Joseph that human intelligences, human spirits are eternal. They are not created by God because as Joseph explains in the King Follet discourse, if they were created, if they had a beginning, then they could have an end. And you know, that's a sobering thought to Joseph. So they are eternal and they have a premortal existence.

Jesus, Satan, and the War in Heaven

John Dehlin 58:14 Okay. The other, the other thing that's important part of this premortal existence that the Book of Abraham reveals is that Jesus, I mean there's, there's, there's a couple nuances here. So Jesus is a child of Heavenly Father according to the Book of Abraham. And we're, tell me if I'm wrong, we're siblings to Jesus, we're kind of spiritual siblings to Jesus, all of us being children of Heavenly Father. But, and even Lucifer or Satan, which this gets some evangelical Christians upset, even Satan or Lucifer is one of the spirit children or spiritual siblings of us or spiritual children of Heavenly Father. That's the second thing that's kind of comes out of this Book of Abraham. And then a third is that Jesus wasn't just a child and a sibling or a peer of ours. Somehow Jesus had some God properties or even pre earth life experiences that made Jesus somewhere between God and us as, I don't know, limpically divine, but not yet fully Divine. And so Jesus takes this leadership role in this, what's called the war in heaven, where Jesus argues one plan and Lucifer or Satan argues a different plan. And all the rest of us, billions of spiritual children with our intelligences combined with our spirit bodies have to decide, well, do we follow Jesus or do we follow Lucifer? And spoiler alert, according to Mormon doctrine, a third of all God's spirit children made the wrong choice, followed Lucifer in this great war in heaven, and were then cast out of heaven to be demons or evil spirits on earth to constantly tempt and try to derail God's plan of salvation and all of that. And the rest of the two thirds follow Jesus's plan in this great premortal council. Now, how much of that's actually in the book of Abraham vs added later John Turner.

John Turner 1:00:47 So that's a great question. So what the. Well, easier, simpler for me to start with, what is the book of Abraham say? So you know, the first thing, it's interesting, it states that among all of these intelligences there were many of the noble and great ones. And God says to Abraham that thou art one of them. You know, you were chosen before you were born. And I think, you know, the implication again is this is not an egalitarian heaven either in terms of the premortal existence or postmortal glory. Ultimately, again, there are always different degrees of intelligence, glory and power. So Abraham is one of the great ones. I think an implication here that isn't stated but is probably true because it corresponds with things Joseph says elsewhere, is that Joseph and other church members, particularly if they are high ranking church members, they might also understand themselves as among, you know, those great or greater ones. But then also among these intelligences is one who was like unto God. So that's Jesus Christ. It does. The text itself doesn't specifically state that these intelligences, including Jesus and Satan, are God's spirit children. Those are somewhat later explanations, including then the idea that Satan and Jesus are brothers, which as you mentioned, that definitely rankles some other Christians who, you know, obviously don't like that implication.

John Dehlin 1:03:13 Are those explanations Joseph gave or they come after Joseph's death by others, or

John Turner 1:03:17 do you know, I think they come after Joseph's death by others.

John Dehlin 1:03:20 Oh wow. Okay, okay. Why are evangelicals so upset at the idea that Jesus and Satan or Lucifer could have been siblings at one point in the pre existence. Why is that so upsetting any idea? Because the God makers, the movie the God makers made a big deal about that, right?

John Turner 1:03:38 Well, it seems like, it seems like A slight on Jesus to have Satan, you know, as a, as a, as a close relative or essentially, I think also I think evangelicals don't like what unfolds in this narrative. God needs to have a world created. And Jesus volunteers, we will go down, for there is space there. And we will take of these materials and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell. Which actually, I think that that phrase is actually, in a way, I find it both folksy and pleasant. You know, we will go down. There's space there. And then Jesus suggests, suggests that those essentially who do well, who prove themselves, they're going to have glory added to them. And the Lord says, you know, who shall I send to do this? Jesus says, here I am. Send me. And then another answers and says, here I am. Send me. And God chooses Jesus. The second is angry and kept not his first estate. And at that day many followed after him. So you do have this war in heaven is maybe a bit overstating it for the book of Abraham itself, but you do have this idea that you have these two intelligences who volunteer to create the world. Jesus and Satan. And many follow Satan.

John Dehlin 1:05:47 Does it say a third?

John Turner 1:05:49 I don't think it says a third, it just says many.

John Dehlin 1:05:52 I was taught a third. And that always bothered me that God, his plan was so catastrophic because one out of three failed from the very beginning before they even had a chance to come to the earth. That felt like a horrible success rate if you love and value all your children. But you know, people can argue and debate about that. It's also worth noting that this idea of intelligences in a premortal existence later becomes used in the justification of the priesthood being withheld from black priesthood and temple blessings being withheld from black Mormons, you know, Bruce Albert McConkey and Joseph Fielding Smith and others. Maybe it dates back to Brigham Young and Joseph Smith end up saying that the reason why people were made black was because of their lack of valiancy in the pre existence. And so them being deprived priesthood and temple blessings on earth as black people, it's their fault. It's not racism, Right. It's their own unworthiness. And it's just important to note that that later doctrine that's since been renounced is a. Is a riff, is a riff on this idea of a premortal existence.

John Turner 1:07:16 Yeah. One, it's a, It's a terrible riff. And I'll just say, I think one reason for the riff is people like to have tidy theology, right? And so Latter Day saints in the second half of the 19th century, beginning with, with Brigham Young, they adopt the position that dark skinned people of African descent are cursed and cannot hold the priesthood. Well, that of course raises the question, why? Why are they cursed? And it would be, you know, it's not attractive to have it simply be arbitrary. So as, as you implied, it's, it's more attractive to provide a reason and to blame the individuals themselves for that curse. And Joseph had left behind this text in which many individuals make a terrible choice in the pre existence and therefore it stood to reason that they were cursed on earth with inferior, you know, inferior bodies that bear a mark of that curse.

John Dehlin 1:08:39 Which is an interesting statement about your belief in God, that if you, if you had problems once upon a time, God's going to make it harder for you, you know, in a second chance instead of, I don't know, find some way to make it easier for you. But, you know, that's fine, Julia. Thanks to Julia for her research. She let me know that in Doctrine and Covenants, section 29, verse 36, it says a third part of the host of heaven, okay, turned he away from me because of their agency. So the 1/3 part apparently comes later. Is that a revelation that comes DNC 29. I wonder if that comes on or after 1842. It would make me think that it would. I'm sure Julie can look up the date while she's doing that. I'll just say at the bottom of page 269 of your book, it makes me think that this idea of theosis or of there being multiple gods or of humans having the ability to become God. So it's both the plurality of gods and the ability of humans to become gods. If that hadn't already evolved in Joseph's theology before 1842, it seems like this is where it starts to take full bloom. Am I right about that? John Turner?

Human Deification and Theosis in Nauvoo Theology

John Turner 1:10:07 So yes. So the idea of theosis, of humans achieving the glory that Jesus Christ had achieved, you can find that in 1833. I forget if it's DNC 91 or 93, but it's in Joseph's engagement with the first chapter of the Gospel of John. So there's, there's the idea of humans growing into a fullness of God's glory. One thing that is new in 1842, and you see this in chapters four and five of the book of Abraham, is once again Joseph goes back to the beginning of the Bible and retells a portion of the creation story, translating a Hebrew word as gods rather than God. So the idea of the existence of a plurality of gods. Joseph gives full voice to that idea in the Book of Abraham. And Joseph privately is saying in early 1842 that all the saints can, like Jesus Christ, receive a similar celestial glory. They could become God's many and Lord's many. That's Joseph sort of riffing on a New Testament phrase. But I interpret that pretty bluntly, that by early 1842, Joseph is very clear that men can become gods, that degree by degree, they can obtain what will bring about their celestial glory and power. What Joseph isn't clear on yet, or isn't fully articulating is what do men have to do on earth in order to attain godhood?

John Dehlin 1:12:41 Okay, I just had a huge aha moment, John Turner, and you'll have to forgive me. You're probably way ahead of me. Julie is doing this research behind the scenes. She notes the Doctrine and covenants section 29 comes in 1830. And in doctrine and covenants 29, it includes all this stuff that I'm talking about Lucifer's rebellion, a third of heaven being cast out, the Lord needing opposition in all things. So that comes in 1830. So it's almost like Book of Abraham isn't unfolding. Well, it's clearly that he's not so much translating what Abraham wrote a couple millennia previously, but he's also not necessarily manufacturing new, purely new theology. It's almost like he's taking some theology that he had either received or baked by 1830 and starts writing it in almost as pseudepigrapha to what he claims is what Abraham wrote in his own hand on the Egyptian papyrus. It's almost like a pseudepigraphal mishmash.

John Turner 1:14:03 Well, what I would say, the first thing to say about that is the idea of Lucifer as a fallen angel and a third of the host of heaven, angels falling and becoming, becoming demons. Those aren't original to Joseph Smith, really. No, no, they're, they're, they're not unusual Christian beliefs. So really now, the idea of Lucifer as a fallen angel, that goes way back. I'm not going to be able to explain it terribly well off the top of my head. But the idea of a third of the host of heaven having fallen, that grows out of an interpretation of a verse in the Book of Revelation that talks about the tale of the beast, I think, sweeping down a third of the stars of Heaven and casting them to earth. So that's the. That's the root of the third of the host of heaven being fallen. I think if you read things like Milton's Paradise Lost, you'll see Lucifer as a fallen angel. That was a fairly common belief.

John Dehlin 1:15:31 So there would have been Christians prior to Joseph Smith that believed that humans existed as spirits before the earthly mortal existence.

John Turner 1:15:44 Well, there is a bit of a twist here though with Joseph Smith. So the idea of the host of heaven, a third of them having fallen, those aren't premortal humans, those are angels who.

John Dehlin 1:16:00 So God's got angels up in heaven. Heaven before earth was created. And we don't know what beings, you know, what being type an angel is prior to Joseph Smith. But God had angels before the earth was existed. A third of those angels were made demons following Lucifer prior to the earth being created. It was Joseph that made those angels human intelligences and or spirits. Ah, so this is kind of bricolage or remix or fan fiction. Joseph's kind of doing Old Testament, New Testament fan fiction, doctrinal theological development, kind of in real time in your book.

John Turner 1:16:48 I think that's fair. Yeah. The idea of this premortal choice to follow Jesus Christ or Satan, that's probably also not totally original to Joseph Smith, but what he lays out in Book of Abraham, chapter three, I do see that as his, you know, as an original theological contribution that, you know, God discusses the creation of a world. Jesus volunteers to go down to do it. Satan, you know, also volunteers, presumably with a, you know, different, different, different plan. And many follow, follow Satan. Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:17:45 And if I'm just now trying to put all this together in the timeline, obviously this ends up as scripture, as canonized scripture for members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Mormons have the Old Testament, New Testament, the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and then they have the Doctrine and Covenants, which is a compilation of Joseph's revelations, some of Joseph's revelations, and some of them altered, some of them left out and removed, some of them added. And then what's called the Pearl of great Price, which is the Book of Abraham, the Book of Moses, and then the Joseph Smith history, which is kind of Joseph Smith's retelling of one version of his first vision story. And I mention all that because it must have been that Joseph sitting there in 1842 saying, we need new scripture, we've got the Book of Mormon, we've got the Doctrine and covenants by 1842. But for some reason Joseph felt like the members need to this explanation of theology because it's really central probably to future revelations and ordinances that Joseph's going to be revealing. And it's almost like the Book of Abraham. And this is kind of hopefully tying it all in that you're doing John Turner. I'm probably just catching up with you. The Book of Abraham becomes important theological and doctrinal groundwork that then Joseph will build temple work, the endowment and eventually eternal salvation on the Book of Abraham's doctrinal theological foundation. Is that right?

John Turner 1:19:31 So that's right. I think one thing that is a bit of a mystery is why do you only get five chapters of this? And I'm saying that not just to be snarky, but in 1835, there does seem to be an expectation of a lot. And Joseph does unfold some. Well, some of these significant doctrines that we are talking about, particularly this pre existence and this sort of prequel to the creation of the world, this clash between Jesus and Satan and a plurality of gods. There are really important doctrines that emerge in the last couple years of Joseph's life that are not in the Book of Abraham. I'd say there's not an explicit statement about the saints following the pattern of God the Father and Jesus Christ and achieving that level of celestial glory and godhood. The ideas that Joseph talks about in the King Follet discourse, which is one reason why occasionally in the history of the Church, individuals have suggested the canonization of the King Follett discourse. So it's interesting to think had Joseph dictated Book of Abraham chapters 6 through 10 a year or two later, I think there would have been even more in it. I think one thing that is really important for people studying Joseph's life and then this longer timeline of church history is we're already in early 1842. Joseph's dead in, you know, 28 months, 27 months after what we're talking about today. And there's. There are so many things that he introduces over the last two years of his life, some of which are very much shrouded in secrecy. You know, that goes for both Freemasonry and plural marriage. That also goes for the Council of 50, which we'll talk about in a later episode. And Joseph's life is then cut very short. You know, he's murdered at age 38. So there's a lot that he simply because of that doesn't tease out and explain for us. And then it's left to people like Brigham Young, Orson Pratt, Parley P. Pratt, and people who come after them to try to give Joseph's ideas a systematic coherence that they didn't have during his lifetime. Especially, you know, given just the, you Know, I would say the chaos and the proliferation of ideas and ordinances that Joseph is unveiling in the last two years before his death.

The Book of Abraham's Impact on Mormonism

John Dehlin 1:23:24 Fascinating. You could argue that word for word, the Book of Abraham has had more of an impact on the Mormon, on Mormonism than the Book of Mormon. I guess it's small, it's relatively small. But maybe that means that Book of Abraham punches above its weight in terms of impact. Which is interesting because I think I've heard that at some point Terrell Gibbons, Mormon apologist, scholar Teryl Gibbons has actually suggested behind closed doors that the Book of Abraham be decanonized. Probably because it was such a problematic translation. A lot of people left the church. My faith crisis was started learning about the false translation of the Book of Abraham and, and I think many people have left the church once they learned that it was a false translation. But also when you combine that with the pre existence teachings later about race and worthiness, I can see why Terrell Gibbons might make that recommendation, but we're not even done. I don't know if you want to comment on that. In terms of Book of Abraham punching above its weight, in terms of contributions to Mormonism.

John Turner 1:24:35 Well, first thing I'd say is that Book of Abraham chapter three, if what you're saying is true, the Book of Abraham punching above its weight, Book of Abraham chapter three really punches above its weight. And I think one thing I'd say that might be helpful for maybe framing this whole discussion is, is to think about, well, what makes something scripture, the word scripture, it simply means, I think, that which is written. But for us, I think maybe on a popular level, people think about scripture often as a synonym for the word of God, like a text that has come from God and therefore has authority. And usually they also have in mind something that came from God a long, long time ago. In a place far, far away, there's a late scholar of religion named Wilfred Cantwell Smith, no relation to Joseph Smith. And I may have mentioned this other Smith before on a previous episode and if so, I apologize for repeating myself, but he's a great little essay or it's actually a book. But the, the intro to the book is really helpful, called what is Scripture? And you know, he says, well, what really makes scripture scripture? You know, if you look at the Bible, it's full of all sorts of different genres, right? You've got law, poetry, proverbs, narratives. And if you look at the canon of Mormon scripture as you outlined a while ago, you also have a bunch of different genres. You've got the narratives of the Book of Mormon, then you've got Joseph's Revelations, you've got an autobiography, you've got the Book of Abraham, Book of Moses, these expansions of biblical texts. There are all sorts of different things. So what makes them scripture? And Wilford Cantwell Smith says, well, if you take a look at all these texts, it's got to be hard to find an essential quality other than these texts are scripture because humans grant them authority. And that is something that sort of has to be done again and again over time because you know, there, there are certainly plenty of ancient texts that were floating around a couple millennia ago that nobody regards as scripture today because they don't have a community that regards them as scripture. So that's a long way of saying as long as there's a community of Latter Day Saints who take the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham and these other texts as scripture and grant them authority, then they function as such. So I find that an interesting way of thinking about scripture. You know, regardless of where the Book of Mormon came from, regardless of the connection or lack thereof between the Book of Abraham text and the papyri, if people regard them as inspired and authoritative, then they function as scripture. If, if commute, if the community stops regarding them that way, then, then they sort of would be functionally decanonized.

John Dehlin 1:28:34 Yeah. And you know, there are many Mormons today, let's just call them liberal or progressive Mormons of kind of the Faith Matters Restore or even Patrick Mason group or of the Polygamy deniers group that don't believe doctrine and covenants.132 is actually actual scripture. They have de canonized it in their own minds. And recently we interviewed on Mormon Stories a woman who is excommunicated for publicly stating that she didn't believe doctrine and covenants. 132 was scripture. I don't know if you knew about that, John Turner.

John Turner 1:29:10 I will have to listen.

John Dehlin 1:29:12 Karen Strong is her name, but Michelle Stone is another person. They both reject The D&C132, the new and everlasting covenant polygamy revelation. They publicly as believing faithful members deny that D&C132 was of God, think it's a forgery and now the church is excommunicating people who have that position, which is weird. Anyway, going back to the Book of Abraham really quick because we're not totally done with it at the top of 270, you know, for 2/3 of 270 you talk about the remainder of the innovations and revelations that come out of the Book of Abraham or Joseph's attempt to produce the text of the Book of Abraham. What else about the Book of Abraham do we want to make sure we cover just to be thorough in today's episode?

The Facsimiles and Secret Knowledge

John Turner 1:30:08 Sure. Well, there's a second vignette, another annotated vignette that was published in the second Times and Seasons installment. Again, the Times and Seasons is the church's Nauvoo newspaper.

John Dehlin 1:30:25 And John Turner, just for visually, this is the Joseph Smith Papers project reproduction of the first correct facsimile. Is that right?

John Turner 1:30:42 That's correct.

John Dehlin 1:30:43 So that's. So you can see that it's not just the facsimile that reappears in the, the LDS canon today. We all grew up as little boys and girls seeing this facsimile in the Mormon quad or the Mormon triple combination and being fascinated by it. There it is published in the Times and Seasons. And then you're saying there was a second published in the Times and Seasons as well. Is that Facsimile two?

John Turner 1:31:12 Correct? That's facsimile two. And that, that is the Hypocephalus, which is a circular papyrus that would be placed under a deceased person's head that is published in the sort of second installment that Joseph publishes in Nauvoo. That.

John Dehlin 1:31:48 And I'll just, I'll just show it really quick. I. This doesn't, I don't see any, like, Times and Seasons logo on this one.

John Turner 1:31:58 I think that is simply extracted from the issue of the newspaper.

John Dehlin 1:32:05 But this is facsimile 2, right?

John Turner 1:32:07 That's facsimile 2. And what Egyptologists interpret is an array of Egyptian deities worshiped by the creatures who appear before them. And Joseph, this won't shock anyone who's been following along. Joseph interpreted this entirely differently. He interpreted this as God sitting upon his throne, revealing the grand key words of the priesthood.

John Dehlin 1:32:52 Okay, and when. And this is. Julie is just sharing with me, here's the Joseph Smith Papers rendition of facsimile to. And when you talk about God sitting on throne Facsimile two, I'm going to pull up that image as well because it's actually upside down. Is that right in the facsimile that we have?

John Turner 1:33:19 I think that is correct. It is actually useful to look at what you have put on the screen because it includes the numbers and then Joseph's corresponding explanations.

John Dehlin 1:33:38 Tell me if this is useful, if this is a useful image to show. So this, this is a version of the 1910, two pearl of great Price, where that inverted image of what Joseph said was God sitting on a throne is corrected. And it's actually that and the 1921 version of the Pearl of Great Price are missing one very important anatomical feature of God, which then gets. So God is castrated, so to speak, but. Or made a eunuch. But then in the 1981 and 2013 version of the Pearl of Great Price, God's male appendage is reattached and you can see it there on the two lower images. Is there any commentation you want to commenting you want to make about God's genitalia? I don't mean to be disrespectful.

John Turner 1:34:33 You're almost getting too corporeal for me,

John Dehlin 1:34:36 John Dehlin, but am I for Joseph Smith?

John Turner 1:34:40 No, I've seen this before and I think that's all accurate and useful information. In the published vignette, there are actually two figures, two numbers that Joseph identifies as representing God upon his throne. There's also number one sort of right in the middle, Joseph interprets as Kolob, nearest to the celestial or the residence of God. So technically, technically, it's not necessarily that God's throne is on Kolob, but Kol is nearest to the residence of God.

John Dehlin 1:35:33 So that square in the middle that has a one written in, that's God's throne near Kolob.

John Turner 1:35:41 Well, that is Kolob.

John Dehlin 1:35:43 Okay, that's Kolob according to Joseph Smith,

John Turner 1:35:46 both three and seven. And if you're just listening to this, it's probably a good idea to try to pull up Book of Abraham, facsimile two. But both three and seven, Joseph interprets as God sitting upon his throne.

John Dehlin 1:36:05 Okay, and for those who are watching and we write on Spotify and on YouTube, you can watch that, you can see the video. I'm using my mouse to circle one. This is God on a throne near Kolob, is that right?

John Turner 1:36:19 Correct.

John Dehlin 1:36:19 And then here's 3. The top right affects Himaly 2. Are you saying that's also God on a throne?

John Turner 1:36:26 Correct.

John Dehlin 1:36:27 And then 7 is this inverted person sitting on a throne that has the phallus or the penis. That's also God sitting on a throne. That's seven upside down, right?

John Turner 1:36:41 Correct.

John Dehlin 1:36:42 And those numbers Joseph Smith added or his scribe added, they weren't in the original, is that right?

John Turner 1:36:48 That's correct.

John Dehlin 1:36:49 Okay, and really quickly, according to Egyptologists, were any of those actually God sitting on a throne? Elohim sitting on a throne? According to Egyptologists?

John Turner 1:37:01 No, not, Not Elohim. Sitting on a throne. So I forget the particulars of the, the of Egyptian deities, but Egyptologists such as Robert Ritter see an array of Egyptian deities with creatures worshiping them.

John Dehlin 1:37:21 Okay, so it's, it's, it's obvious. It's probably ham fisted to say Joseph got that translation wrong along with all the other stuff he got right.

John Turner 1:37:31 Absolutely.

John Dehlin 1:37:32 Sorry for being ham fisted.

John Turner 1:37:35 That's, that's true. I don't know if it's ham fisted or not, but that, no, that's true. You know, it's, you know, Joseph is, is overlaying his own ideas on, on these images.

John Dehlin 1:37:51 Okay, and what does he turn that into scripture? Does he turn this part about. That's where the collab comes from then? Well, God on his throne comes from

John Turner 1:38:02 facsimile to Kolob is both in book of Abraham 3. But then these facsimiles with Joseph's explanations are also part of the book of Abraham. So they are also scripture for Latter Day Saints. And it's, you know, these explanations are significant. We have God. This is for Figure 3. Revealing the grand key words of the holy priesthood to figures like Noah, Adam, Abraham.

John Dehlin 1:38:39 And you said we've talked about Joseph believing that he knew the true name of God. He believed that there was power in words, almost like folk magic, witch incantation power infused in a word that if you knew, then the real name of God being what? According to Joseph Smith, John Turner, Aman, that somehow that gave you, as you write in your book, access to divine power and the ability to unlock the heavens. So Joseph is not just creating divine pseudo Christian interpretations of these Egyptian relics. He's teaching his followers that by learning Joseph's interpretations of these relics, he was helping them obtain divine power to unlock the heavens.

John Turner 1:39:41 Yeah, yeah. This is not meant to be esoteric, just to be interesting and curious, but esoterica in the sense of knowledge that is a conduit for power and glory. Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:40:02 And when we talk about how Joseph keeps his followers motivated and why they're so committed to him over time, even when prophecies fail and people are killed and people are cast out and he's caught in adultery, part of it is his claims for power and part of it is his promises to his followers that they'll have special power by following him and some sort of superior divine destiny that other mere mortals won't get true.

John Turner 1:40:41 No, I think that's fair. That and the idea that there's secret knowledge, powerful knowledge out there that is accessible only to a select group, you know, that's not an uncommon thing within religious movements. You can, I think you can find, you can find some echoes of that in the New Testament itself in the sense of, you know, some people have the ability to understand these inscrutable parables and others don't. And you can find some traditions within early Christianity that foreground the significance of secret knowledge. But yes, no, that's, that's true. And I think also one other thing that's very characteristic of Joseph Smith is the promise of more to come. And if you look at the published facsimile 2 with Joseph's explanations at first, if you, you know, there's like a really long explanation for the first five or so and then for what he has is number eight. It contains writings that cannot be revealed unto the world but is to be had in the holy temple of God. Figure 9 ought not to be revealed at the present time. Figure 10 also can't be revealed. Figure 11 Also, if the world can find out these numbers, so let it be amen. Figures 12 through 21 will be given in the own due time of the Lord. And you know, we're both chuckling a little bit, but I do think, I do think this idea that God is revealing things through a prophet and there's more around the corner that is significant and that was characteristic of Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin 1:43:05 I'm going to share with Julia a link, there's a link to a webpage that actually does, I think a really good job of really breaking this down. I'm sure the works of Robert Rittner and others will do an even better job. But this, this webpage actually shows all the numbers in blue that we're talking about and then actually takes each figure one by one in color and shows what Joseph translated it to be, but also what it actually is according to Egyptologists. And you can see the different colored figures and what they actually are. In some instances they're like what, funeral jars that are sitting under a table or whatever. But it's basically an in depth explanation of all the facsibilities. What Joseph claimed there were and what they actually are. According to Egyptologists. It's fat. You could, you could get a, a PhD in the, the Egyptian materials in Joseph Smith's alleged translation. You could probably justify a PhD on that alone. In fact, I think John Gee and, and others have done that actually.

John Turner 1:44:28 Well, I think you would be. Yeah, there's, there's a tremendous amount of, of detail that you can go down all sorts of rabbit holes with this topic. Right. I do think for me as an outsider to the tradition, you know, it doesn't take very long if you don't have. I think if you don't have any stake in this, to reach the simple conclusion. Well, there's no connection between the Book of Abraham and these papyri. I mean, that's. That seems pretty straightforward. I think that's universally accepted by non Mormon Egyptologists and I think increasingly accepted by. The church itself to some extent. I think it is fascinating to see the way that Joseph chooses to bring forth his ideas. There's a lot of complexity, you know, that you. Between the purchase of these materials in 1835, the creation of the grammar and Alphabet, some initial attempts at translation, and then Joseph spending years thinking about some of these theological concepts and then choosing to unveil some of them, but not all of them in 1842 with this text and these facsimiles. It's really fascinating. Fascinating to me. You know, I mentioned Freemasonry as maybe one catalyst for moving forward with this project. That phrase, grand key words. I think that's a. I think that's a pretty common Masonic phrase. So I think there's some. Some catalyst from that. I think also, you know, Joseph's theology, it has evolved a lot, but by 1842. And I think he's looking for a way to get some of those ideas into circulation, including some ideas such as a plurality of gods, that certainly in the context of American Christianity in the early 1840s are going to necessarily stir a lot of controversy.

John Dehlin 1:47:19 Yeah. And just to tie it all in, you know, the final couple paragraphs, next episode, we're going to be talking about masonry and polygamy and the Relief Society and eventually the washings and anointings and the endowment ceremony and the evolution of all of this coming together as what Mormons view as their most sacred ordinances in the temple today. Maybe, maybe we can summarize by just talking about how the Book of Abraham becomes a bridge and a foundation for what becomes probably Joseph's culminating theological, doctrinal and ritualistic innovations.

God Making and Joseph's Central Theological Vision

John Turner 1:48:12 Yeah. So I think the central theological question for Joseph Smith, and it's not just, you know, it's not just an arcane theological question for him. There are all sorts of practical implications. That question is, if humans can achieve celestial glory akin to Jesus Christ or even God the Father, how. What do they have to do? What do they need? And Joseph, Joseph is answering that question over the last two years of his life. They need the grand key words of the holy priesthood and at least some of Those key words, Joseph says will be revealed in the temple and in what becomes known as the endowment ceremony. Joseph also teaches in clearly by the spring of 1843. I'm skipping ahead just a little bit. He clearly teaches that in order to achieve that glory humans need, men need to be sealed in marriage. Joseph also, in the Book of Abraham, lays out that if there are two spirits, one shall be more intelligent than the other. So there's this idea of growing in power and glory, but there's always, there's, there's always hierarchy and distinction. You know, some of these intelligences are going to achieve more than others. And I think that's one of, you know, that's, that's central to Joseph's pursuit of plural wives in the sense of the greater the extent of one's family, the more, more wives, the more ceilings, the more eternal power and glory. So that question, how do men on earth ensure their celestial power and glory? The answers that Joseph is playing around with, they drive so many things over the last two years of his life.

John Dehlin 1:50:47 Yeah, and the summary that I have, you know, like you say, John Turner, if you just want to criticize Joseph Smith and undermine the Mormon movement, you can just say, ah, the Book of Abraham is a false translation. But I think if you stop there, you're missing really important stuff. And for me, what the Book of Abraham enterprise shows is Joseph. It's how seriously he takes the Old Testament, how seriously he takes the New Testament in the Book of Revelations, how seriously he wants to innovate, and how seriously he takes things like the history and destiny of humans and the human soul and the history and destiny of human families and how he wants to just tie it all together and innovate and extend it in a way that will bring the most joy to the most amount of people. And to me, that's probably a more accurate and enlightened but also constructive way to look at the Book of Abraham Enterprise. It's Joseph really trying to tie it all together and extend it to the joy, meaning and happiness the God's work. The Book of Abraham represents Joseph Smith's attempt to tie the Old and New Testament, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, all this theology, to tie it all together and extend it as God's work for his children, which is us.

John Turner 1:52:29 So that's a very nice summary, very complimentary to Joseph Smith. John Dehlin. I think the one thing I'd say is that for Joseph, the way that you just explained it, that sounds very attractive and it is. I agree I think one, one hang up for Joseph or one thing that I maybe find less attractive and that I think led him in ways that were ultimately self destructive and potentially harmful to others, comes back to that idea of distinctions in power and glory. And you know, there's this in that facsimile explanation that we looked at a few minutes ago. Well, there are men like Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses that become privy to those grand key words. And there are exalted intelligences like Abraham that are going to have a more significant role to play in the cosmos. One of the things I argue in the biography is that I think we need to take seriously Joseph's self identification with these biblical figures like the biblical Joseph, which he makes, that's that identification in the book of Abraham itself. And Joseph sees himself as following in the path of Moses and Abraham and Enoch and Solomon and emulating biblical figures. I mean that's not an unusual idea. But I think wanting to attain that unusual level of power and glory and cosmic significance, I think that led Joseph, you know, I think that led him in some ways that were not as attractive and that were self destructive and harmful to others over the last couple years of his life.

John Dehlin 1:55:11 So there were some negative side effects of some of these teachings. Yeah, which, which of course I would, I would also agree with. But I think if we want to have the best faith view of Joseph, I do think it's a decent explanation to say that at least what I said previously was what he was trying to do to tie it all together and make a plan of salvation that was deeply motivating and inspiring for humankind.

John Turner 1:55:43 Yes. And you know, if you look at, if you take a look at the King Follett discourse, which we'll talk about in a few episodes from now, the impetus for that is the death, the tragic death of a faithful church member and Joseph. A lot of the theology that Joseph articulates in that funeral sermon, that's the same theology that we're talking about today for the most part. And Joseph understood it as a comfort to those who are mourning on earth. And so, yeah, I do think that was the intention.

John Dehlin 1:56:36 Excellent. Well, now you can see why I figured we needed to break out the Masonic stuff and the polygamy stuff from this discussion because I do think this is important innovations and an important moment worth slowing down on. So believe it or not, dear viewer, dear listener, we've only discussed half of chapter 24 from John Turner's book, Joseph Smith, the Rise and Fall of an American Prophet. Because next episode we're going to be talking about the Masonic stuff. The formation of a Masonic lodge in Nauvoo, which then leads Joseph to want to create a female version of a Masonic lodge which ends up being called the Relief Society. And then, John Turner, you can respond to my interpretation that at least half of the motivations for both the Endowment Ceremony and the Relief Society is to keep Joseph Smith's polygamy's secret from the membership, which I had never really fully concluded previously, but you don't have to answer that now. Anything else you want to say about next episode?

What's Ahead and Closing Remarks

John Turner 1:57:56 I will just say people should keep buckling up. We've got, we've got a lot, lot on the way.

John Dehlin 1:58:03 I'm going to say the polygamy part of chapter 24 really got me upset. John Turner, I don't know if you felt any feelings of frustration or anger or outrage, but there are some shenanigans going on in, in chapter 24 that are a little disturbing.

John Turner 1:58:24 Well, I'm not gonna, I'm not going to. You know, I tell my spoiler, I always tell my family with Netflix series and so forth. I want no spoilers.

John Dehlin 1:58:34 Okay. Okay.

John Turner 1:58:35 I'm going to follow that principle. I can keep a secret till doomsday.

John Dehlin 1:58:40 All right, John Turner, thanks so much for joining us today and for this great book. Everyone, please buy it. Please buy the Rise and Fall of an American Prophet Joseph Smith by John Turner. You can buy it on Amazon. You can buy it in audiobook form and in hard copy. At some point there's going to be a soft copy of this book, but let's sell all the hard copies first. How's that?

John Turner 1:59:07 That is a great plan. Now, I think the paperback is coming out in June this year, 2026.

John Dehlin 1:59:16 So that's a good sign, right? That means you sold a lot or not.

John Turner 1:59:21 I think it's a good sign. I think that basically also means the press thinks it can sell more when they bring it out in paperback, but it's there for you however you want to consume it. You can read it in hardcover now, soft cover later, ebook, audiobook, and heck, you're getting a lot of it and some extra if you're listening to this podcast. So however you like to get your history, we're here for you.

John Dehlin 1:59:54 A reminder, please subscribe to this YouTube channel so we can hit 300,000. Please like it? Please comment. We love your comments. Please email us@mormonstoriesmail.com I'll forward the emails on to John Turner. We love your comments on our YouTube channel. I share them with John often great analysis and feedback. Please check out those comments, everyone. They're really worth seeing. And I'll just also say thanks to our donors that make Mormon stories possible and to the donors that have made the Joseph Smith Project possible. We're extending this beyond the number of episodes we thought we would, and we're paying John Turner for each episode. So if you're valuing this content and you want to see it continue, even if you've already donated, please consider donating to pay for the extra episodes. And if you have not donated yet and you want to see this series continue, please consider donating@donorbox.org Joseph Smith. And I promise one half of all that money that is donated to that donor box account will go in John Turner's worthy pocket.

John Turner 2:01:07 Thank you, John Dehlin. And thanks to everyone who's listening. Thanks to people who have supported this. Thanks for people who comment and write questions. I have a deep fascination with this history and I love sharing it with you.

John Dehlin 2:01:25 So you're not tired of this? You're not tired of this yet, John Turner?

John Turner 2:01:29 I'm hard to wear out, I guess.

John Dehlin 2:01:31 All right, well, thanks again. Thanks for joining us. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other, everyone, and we'll see you again soon on the Joseph Smith Podcast and on Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

John Turner 2:01:46 Bye. Bye.

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